Tara (00:51):
Okay, we have a very special episode today because we have a guest and our guest is Bernadette Terry of Great Southern Wills, also known as Bernadette Duell of Great Southern Wills. And Bernie, I am just so thrilled to have you on the podcast. Not only is it an honour to have you on the podcast, but I am sitting right next to you at Law Biz Con, which is such a thrill because you live on the other side of the country to me, so warm welcome, Bernie. Thanks, Tara.
Bernadette (01:29):
It's a real honour to be on your podcast. I've been listening for a very long time now. And yeah, real honour,
Tara (01:35):
Well, it means so much that you say that because I'm honoured. This is like the Honour party. I'm so honoured that you have come on because you have been a supporter of the Art of Estate planning from the very beginning. You are always championing me and what we do at the Art of Estate Planning, and I am just always so grateful for your support. There's so many things in the art of estate planning that wouldn't even be possible without you, like our LEAP coding, like our Letter of Wishes workbook. And I mean, that's just the deliverables, but the vibrancy and connection and generosity that you bring to our TT Precedents Club is unmatched. And I actually think having you as one of our founding members has been such a critical part of that community being so magical. So we just love you to bits here.
Bernadette (02:35):
Thanks, Tara. I mean, it's all about giving back, isn't it? So, Tara, you've given so much to my law firm. When I started my law firm, I prepared all my documents from scratch, and whenever there was a change to the law, I would have to look at the legislation, look at the case law, read it myself, and then update my clauses myself. And that would take a lot of time as well. And always looking for a product where you had a clause bank and a community and precedence where somebody was updating them automatically. And I know it takes time, so we don't have to focus on that. We can just focus on client service and delivery.
Tara (03:19):
Oh, you are so kind, Bernie. And look, this isn't about, oh, tell me how good I am, but I wanted to bring you on because I think your story is really incredible and really inspirational to a lot of people listening. I was thinking that there will be listeners out there who may be at a juncture in their career and your story could really give them an idea of what's possible. So you mentioned your firm, Great Southern Wills. Tell us a little bit about it. Where are you based? What do you do?
Bernadette (03:54):
We are a little country firm in Albany, Western Australia with a population of 46,000 people. So not that many people. We are five hours drive south of Perth, so we are as remote and rural as you can in Australia. Really enjoy working there because it's a really good community and they support you in your business ventures. But I know I am a country firm, but I didn't start there. I actually started in Sydney as a young law graduate at University of Sydney. And I started my career at Gilbert and Tobin, a top tier law firm, and they did not have a tax division, and they asked me to run the tax division with two other partners. So we did that. So I actually started in tax and accounting, and then I got headhunted by Clayton Utz. And so there started, I had my top tier experience at Clayton Utz in tax.
(04:53):
And I love the corporate restructures, the capital gains tax, the stamp duty, the restructuring, dealing with the HEO. And that actually set me up for estate planning because as you know, estate planning, you're dealing with tax, you're dealing with property, you're dealing with super, you're dealing with individuals. And that's when I realised when the director said to me, you are really good at looking at my shares and understanding my personal situation. And I wanted to do more with estate planning rather than the corporates. And from there I decided estate planning is going to be my specialty. And I joined Peter Bobbin of Argo Lawyers. Now he's the godfather of Wills. Tara is the queen of Wills, but Peter, he's the godfather of Wills. And Peter, if you're listening, oh, he would not listen to my little podcast. He taught me so much in tax and super and property and absolutely love estate planning from there.
(05:53):
But as you know, when you are in working in the city, it took me two hours to get to work, no parking traffic. And then when you're at work, you've got your time sheets, you've got your billable hours, you have your partners to report to. You are working very long hours and you are wearing a suit, high heels, you have to look for part in the corporate law firm. And I decided eventually that wasn't for me. I decided I didn't like the time sheets. I didn't like the billable hours. I think if you are giving value, then you can come up with an amount for the value rather than clients paying for you drafting a document and it's tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. I used to think about it like being in a cab where you're sitting in a taxi and you're sitting at a traffic light and you are paying for them to sit at a traffic light. Whereas if they gave your fixed fee beforehand, you are prepared for it and you'll pay for that. But if you're sitting in a traffic light, why should you pay for that? So I thought there must be a better way of practising the law and being in the city also, I was single as well. I was a workaholic and it was really hard for me to date as well in Sydney. And I dated for a very long time, disastrous.
Tara (07:18):
I love how this is turning into a romance and love podcast. Dish the dirt!
Bernadette (07:23):
And not seeing my family. Beautiful workaholic. I had the harbour use, I had the sports car, I had the Louis Vuitton bag, I still have my Louis Vuitton, but I had the outfits and I did look good and I looked the part and it looked like I was successful, but I wasn't happy. So I actually took a break. I took a break from the law and took three months off to reassess. And that's when a law firm in Little Albany decided they needed a lawyer. And I thought, I'm going to do it. It's my time.
Tara (07:57):
Wow, that takes so much courage. Are you from Western Australia?
Bernadette (08:01):
No, I had never been to WA before. And I said to my agent, I received a number of offers from law firms around the eastern seaboard. I said, no, I don't want another job in Sydney. I don't want a job in Melbourne or Brisbane. What about Wollongong? What about Newcastle? What about Mornington Peninsula? What about Cairns? Nope, nowhere near the East Coast as far as possible where there are farms, where there's a community and where I can make a huge difference because my partner, I used to work at PWC as well, and he worked in Orange, and he said that was the highlight of his career because you're dealing with real people with real matters who value what you say and will pay for it.
Tara (08:48):
I think that's incredible. So you went from being a top tier tax lawyer to a rural and regional estate planning specialist?
Bernadette (08:59):
So my salary dropped quite substantially and I didn't need to wear the suits anymore. And it was a big change in my lifestyle. So I moved from my beautiful apartment in Sydney with Harborview to the other side of the country where I knew not one person, but I was able to afford a much larger house with much larger harbour views because the property prices are much lower in Albany. And I wasn't travelling two hours a day to get to work. I can actually walk to work, it takes 10 minutes walk or five minutes of driving. It's so quick.
Tara (09:43):
And then you ended up marrying the deputy mayor.
Bernadette (09:46):
So what I did, I knew nobody in Albany when I first moved there. So I thought I really need to immerse myself in the community. So the first thing I did was on the Friday, went to the yacht club. I love sailing and that's something I did in, well, I wanted to do in Sydney Harbour, but I just didn't have the time. I was a workaholic. So I approached the Princess Royal Sailing Club, and one of the skippers said, we are going on a twilight sale, would you like to join us on Friday? I said, yes, please, absolutely loved it being out there on the ocean, no mobile phone. You are just with the elements and your crew. And he said to me, would you like to crew tomorrow? Would you like to come back? I said, yes. And then I saw it every Saturday from there in until I got pregnant.
(10:33):
But on that first Saturday, I saw Paul on another yacht and he was racing against me, but romance didn't blossom straight away. It took a long time. He was on the Albany Chamber of Commerce board as well. I got elected on, he was the vice president, and I fell in love with, well, I admired the way he spoke up in board meetings and I thought it was really good trait, a principled man. I would have a thought in my head and too embarrassed to say it. And he would just say it. And I thought, this guy is quite smart and he's a really good board person. He's a sailor. But romance didn't blossom. Friendship started, and I had a big house, as I said before, I went from a two bedroom tiny apartment in Sydney to a massive three bedroom, two bathroom house with massive harbour views in Albany. And I decided it would be good to have a housemate. And he moved in.
(11:33):
Oh wow.
(11:34):
He was my housemate.
Tara (11:35):
Oh my Gosh. Okay.
Bernadette (11:36):
Yeah. And then he was my housemate for a bit. He was a financial planner, so he would refer work to me. And we talked about estate planning all the time. And in fact, he did suggest starting an estate planning law firm at the time. But I was working for another small law firm in Albany and then decided I would like to go out on my own, but it was hard setting up a business from scratch. I had to start the precedence from scratch. And that's when Tara came into my life and Carly as well. And since then, my firm has blossomed in five years. We have six staff with offices with Harbour views, and we're making a real difference in the community.
Tara (12:19):
I mean, Bernadette, you're being very humble here. I think what you have done with great Southern Wills is incredible because as we said, there's a population of 46,000 people. There's a couple of law estate planning practitioners in the town already. So for you to set up another successful firm, you really have had to bring something very special, and drew the community.
Bernadette (12:50):
And if you are working in the cities and you are thinking of moving to the regions now, the regions, the law firms, they're generalist law firms. The law firms will practise family law, criminal law, estate planning is like they're little bread and butter. And they'll charge a small amount, but they're not specialists. So I decided to do something completely different. This is back in COVID days. I decided I'm going to specialise in estate planning and that's it. Go out to market in a small population, which is a big risk.
Tara (13:22):
Wow. I love it. You picked a niche and you just went hard at it.
Bernadette (13:27):
Yep, yep. So we don't do disputes and we don't do administration. We are pure planning with a team of six.
Tara (13:35):
I just think that's incredible. And I mean you serve as Albany, but you do also go out to the Great Southern
Bernadette (13:42):
For Great Southern. So we are called Great Southern because we are in the great Southern region and the great southern region there are 60,000 people in the region.
Tara (13:52):
Please tell the story about how you had to upgrade the Audi to the Prado and get rid of the high heels.
Bernadette (14:01):
So as you know, I was a city lawyer from Sydney living in Little Albany and the law firm I was working for at the time, they're a Perth based law firm, and suits are important. And we had a lot of farming clients because the extra, what's that, 60 miners, 46, whatever the difference is mostly farmers of the regions. They were up north, we're talking about cropping farmers, so your wheat, your Bali, et cetera. And I would turn up to clients on the farm with my Audi convertible that had transported from Sydney wearing my country road suit and my stockings and my Manolo, what's it called? Manolo shoes, high heels. And I would turn up to the farm, I would get bogged because I'm so low, the car's so low. And when I got out of the bog, then I would approach the main house. The dog would greet me at my door, lick my stockings, cause a ladder, my heels would dig into the dirt. There's a farm incline shaking their head, who is this person? We don't want, you don't know how farmers work. So from then I changed. I actually gave the Audi to a client and we bought a Prado Land Cruiser Prado much higher car and got rid of all my suits, all my stockings, all of my heels. And I now wear jeans, sneakers, maybe Ugg boots. No, not Ugg boots. And I would meet clients on the farm like that. And it's just much more relaxed as well.
Tara (15:43):
I mean, I think anybody who knows you Bernadette knows that you just are such a people person and you love talking to clients and meeting them. So I think choosing a career as an estate planning lawyer just suits you down to the ground.
Bernadette (15:59):
Thank you. It's a real people career, isn't it? Because you are talking to clients about their families and the dynamics. You're talking about their hopes and their dreams and their hopes and dreams for their children. And with, what is it, 4.3 trillion? Is that right? Dollars being transferred to the next generation? Estate planning is becoming quite crucial for the next two decades or more because the baby boomers are dining. There's lots of wealth being passed in the next generation, and we need those estate planning lawyers out there. And Tara, you can help them out.
Tara (16:35):
Yeah, absolutely. It's a booming industry. And there's statistics from the Australian Productivity Commission where it is meant to quadruple by 2050. So we're looking at $208 billion. Whoa. I've been looking at the statistics of all law based kind like 208 billion of wealth being transferred as a state planning wealth each year by 2050. So it's absolutely huge. But I mean, the reason, just what I love about what you do at Great Southern Wheels, Bernie, is you've really built up your customer base through obviously networking. You've just told us how you met your husband. So I can imagine you just us fully embracing all the opportunities in the community, but also social media and you do an incredible job on your social media, getting across your personality, your value offering, being able to explain those complex topics really easily. And I just think that's such a credit to you because you've really found a way to have the community in the great Southern region like and trust you. And I just think everything you've done is so courageous to step away from your initial specialisation of tax and to branch into estate planning. I mean, they're very complimentary areas, but even that, going from big corporate, the big sexy corporate restructures to the little estate planning.
Bernadette (18:19):
But I prefer the little estate planning, you can make such a positive difference to their lives.
Tara (18:22):
Absolutely. You get a front row seat to the most incredible clients and learn all about them and their values and what the legacy they want to build and what they do with their money. Yeah, it's fantastic. But I just think it's such a credit to you to do something totally off the beaten path, and now you've built this incredible life for yourself and your family.
Bernadette (18:46):
That's right. I think I was meant to be in Albany. So if you are at a juncture and you're not sure where you want to be, consider taking that jump, even if it's really scary. I did not know one person in Albany, which is on the other side of the country, I had to leave my networks, my family, and I'm a people person, so I had quite a large network in Sydney to the other side of the country where I did not know one person, take the leap. Just do it.
Tara (19:15):
Also Google Albany because the beaches are so stunning from what I see from your social media, Bernie, I have definitely got it on my bucket list of travel because it just looks like the most beautiful place in Australia.
Bernadette (19:32):
I mean, we are at Surface Paradise here, the Gold Coast. The beaches are beautiful here. The beaches in Sydney are beautiful Bondi, Balmoral, manly, absolutely beautiful. However, you get to Little Albany and because we have such a small population, you can have a whole beach to yourself as well. And there's no pollution. And the beaches, there is a white sand, white squeaky sand with blue aqua water because it's untouched.
Tara (20:06):
Oh, it looks incredible.
Bernadette (20:08):
And we have beautiful produce. So the farmers there. I know I talked about the cropping farmers, but we also have your vegetables. We have some really good wineries down there because we are so far away. The produce is so fresh and beautiful, organic. It's just the lifestyle is so good. And I mean, I had my brother and sister-in-law visit for my wedding in March, and their stress levels went down when they arrived in Albany, and they felt so much calmer in Albany because no, we don't have a traffic light, not one traffic light in Albany. You can know parking metres either. The rent is okay, property prices are good. You can buy a decent house in Albany for say, I don't know, 800,000. You'd be paying 2.53 million in Sydney easily. So sell up your house in Sydney and you can buy a really good property in Albany and have lots of money left over.
Tara (21:10):
And before we jumped on, Bernie, you were saying you're planning on a trip to Italy next year. You were in France last year, you're able to go to your daughter's school events. Tell us more about the lifestyle.
Bernadette (21:29):
So when I was in top tier in Sydney, you were working ridiculous hours. You need to have your six billable hours a day, which is really, you're working eight to 10 hours, maybe 12 hours.
Tara (21:40):
We had 6.75 really, and I felt like I couldn't do it in less than 12 hours.
Bernadette (21:47):
So you've got those long hours when you're working in the city in Albany, because we're fixed fees, we don't do the billable hour as long as we're servicing our clients and because we've fixed fees, you can actually make a good profit out of fixed fees compared to billables. Our staff, we work really good hours, as long as our clients are happy, the money's coming in. We have a rule where if it's a sunny day and there's nothing urgent, we close the doors at lunchtime and go pick up your kids, go to the beach.
Tara (22:20):
Oh my God.
Bernadette (22:21):
Or go to the pub or whatever you want because we've got things, people have life admin. So you might want to get your nails done, you might want to go to the bank, the doctor pick up the kids, take 'em to get their braces done. And when do you have time to do that in the regions, particularly with the firms there, people working and they're still getting their work done.
Tara (22:45):
That's incredible. And you are looking well at the time of recording. You are looking to expand your team, aren't you?
Bernadette (22:52):
We are. So I, there are two senior lawyers, myself and Reno, he's our senior lawyer and we're supported by a paralegal who does all the drafting and she's absolutely amazing. We use Tara's precedents, they're all coded and her claws bank and her hot seats if we have any questions. And we have three admin staff and the work just keeps piling in. So we're looking for a mid to senior lawyer who's happy just to take on client meetings and take the initial instructions, advise and present the documents for signing.
Tara (23:29):
So you mean the best parts of an estate planning matter?
Bernadette (23:32):
That's right. So it's client interactions, the drafting, the onboarding, the sending documents to land gate attorneys and all that done by our staff. So the lawyer's job is really just to meet with clients.
Tara (23:46):
Oh, I love it. I just think that what you have built, it's such a testament to your special flavour of intelligence, creativity, connection with people. It's so inspiring. Bernadette. Thanks Tara. You've set up, you're delivering top tier work. You're competing at a Pitt Street standard, but delivering that to your local community in Albany. And I just think that's incredible.
Bernadette (24:18):
Yep. And we, I mean we have the hot seats every Thursday, so the lawyers in our team have access to that. So to keep up with training, I also fly to Perth. I'm on the Wills and Estates accreditation subcommittee, so I'm actually in touch with the who's who of estate planning in Perth as well. It's a really good area to be in. And you'll be working in a beautiful place with Harborview, but not like Sydney Harborview, arguably more beautiful, cleaner, much cleaner. And then go to the beach if it's a nice day, just close up and you'll have your own office, an electric desk that goes up and down so you can stand up if you wanted to.
Tara (25:05):
Yeah. All right. Let's use this podcast to get you a person looking for a sea change. Reach out to Bernadette if this sounds like what you're looking for, because yeah, it's incredible opportunity. And I just think, I remember when I was even a senior associate level working on Eagle Street in Brisbane, and I think people know this, but maybe not, but I grew up in Bundaberg, which is a little bit bigger than Albany, but sort of similar thing, a four hour drive from the capital city. And I thought, I have to be in Brisbane or I can't, there's no way I can do this work of this calibre in a regional town. I have to be in a capital city. And it's just incredible how that has changed in the last 10 or 15 years, but it's because of people like you who are trailblazers and making it happen. Back when you started and set up your firm pre COVID, people weren't zooming all the time and all of that. And it was still that I have to go to the capital city to get the top tier advice. So I just think it's incredible that you said, I'm not going to let all of those rules hold me back. No, I've got a lot to offer the community and I'm going to find a way to do it.
Bernadette (26:38):
That's right. See, you can offer that top tier service in the regions as well. And we've actually had clients from Perth Travel all the way down to Albany to see us. Oh wow. I know, but they made a holiday out of it as well.
Tara (26:53):
Oh my gosh.
Bernadette (26:53):
Yeah.
Tara (26:54):
And I mean that's just a testament to you, Bernadette. They've clearly seen the way that you market.
(27:00):
And your approach has cut through to them. And this is what I sometimes say, we're getting a bit of topic, but should we be threatened about those DIY online automated wills? And I just think the right people, if you can get your marketing to connect with them and get your message across, it actually isn't about, oh, I'm going to shop around and which lawyer do I use? It's just a matter of am I going to prioritise getting my estate planning done? Okay. Yes, I will. And Bernadette's, the lawyer that I'm going to use, what she says resonates with me. I know and trust her. And it's not a matter of like, oh, do I want Bernadette or Tara? You've cut through to them in a way through your messaging and marketing, which is such a credit to you.
Bernadette (27:55):
Yeah, because it's a real personal thing, estate planning, isn't it? So they want to know the lawyer that they're going to divulge all this confidential information to. So you need to be able to trust them. And that's where marketing comes in and cuts through all that. And you're absolutely right. We have clients who want to see me but can't afford me, so they'll start saving for that. So they might not be ready today, but they'll see me in six months to a year's time, but they'll have that money ready.
Tara (28:24):
What a testament.
Bernadette (28:25):
I know.
Tara (28:26):
I love that. If they can get an appointment, you're always booked out. I love it.
Bernadette (28:31):
Yeah
Tara (28:31):
We have drinks to go to.
(28:34):
We do, Law Biz Con. So I reckon we should wrap it up and go mix and mingle, but is there anything else that you want to share?
Bernadette (28:43):
No, just take that leap. If it's scary, just take that leap and back yourself and you're going to have this massive community out there in Tara's group to support you.
Tara (28:55):
Yeah, look, I feel funny sort of plugging the club, but we have people like you, Bernadette, who are just such an integral member of the club. You are always showing up. You are being so generous with not only your expertise and experience, but your general advice and reaching out and connecting with everybody. And it really, I think just makes it such a supportive environment. I had lunch with a lawyer on my drive to the Gold Coast today, and she is in a rural town, very similar population size to yours. And I was driving by and I was like, that's it. I'm going to make sure I get to stop, have my husband and kids the whole entourage with me this time. So we caught up and she said to me, when I first started, I was really lonely in practise and I thought the community might've welcomed me opening up another law firm, but it's very much the old guard and I felt very isolated.
(30:02):
And then when I joined the TT precedents Club, I was like, I can't believe it. I'm making friends with all of these, mostly women. We've got some blokes. You do? Yeah, it's a lot of women. But I'm making friends with these lawyers around the country who are going through the exact same thing with me as me. And I just feel like, yeah, if you're out there thinking of setting up your own firm, get access to people like Bernadette and everyone else in there to sort of be your own personal cheer squad and mentorship. Obviously I do my best as well to mentor everybody, but it's people like you, Bernie, that and what you contribute to the TT Precedent's Club as well. That makes it such a magical place. So on behalf of everybody, thank you.
(30:52):
You're welcome. You're welcome.
(30:54):
You've been one of our founding members literally from the very beginning in 2021, and I'm so grateful for you all your support and cheering me on and also spreading the word about The Art of Estate Planning.
(31:07):
And I'm just so excited to see what these next chapters unfold for you because I just think each year it's getting bigger and better and whether that's obviously you want the team to grow more clients and scaling, whether it's more time for you. Oh, we forgot to mention you basically, you've employing Paul in the business too. Your business is supporting your whole family.
(31:36):
Yes.
(31:36):
I mean he is the deputy mayor, right, but that's a small fee. Yeah. So he's got his hands full, but there's no small fee to have your firm supporting your whole family. That's incredible.
Bernadette (31:49):
You can do it. Yeah, absolutely do it. And I mean, Paul's saying, when we were employees, we didn't go overseas. We were stuck in the rut working hour nine to five days with no control over. You get paid a wage, you do your hours, but you can't go beyond that really. And having your own law firm, you're in control and you decide how much money you want to make and what time you want to put in the business and when it's up and ready, then you can go overseas, you can go to your child's assembly and support them. You can do all that. And that's the freedom that having a really good law firm that you are in control of gives you rather than being an employee.
Tara (32:37):
And you can spend five days flying across the country going to Law Biz Con. So let's wrap it up. We've got welcome drinks today.
(32:44):
We do. We do. We've got a lot of people downstairs waiting for us.
(32:47):
Thank you so much, Bernadette.
(32:49):
You're welcome, Tara.
(32:50):
Pleased to have you on and I hope your story resonates and inspires everybody as much as it does me.
(32:58):
Thank you.
