Tara (00:50):
Thank you so much for joining me. We have a special episode with a very special guest today, Denise Duffield-Thomas.
(00:59):
She is a money mindset coach. If you're a longtime listener of the podcast, you might have heard me talk about Denise and Her Money Bootcamp before. So I'm thrilled to have her here. Welcome, Denise.
Denise (01:12):
Thank you, Tara, and thank you so much for talking so nicely behind my back to your community. I appreciate that.
Tara (01:21):
Well, I came into your Money Bootcamp at the start of 2022. I've been a longtime listener of your course and your podcast and I really feel like the teachings that you've shared have actually had a huge impact on the art of estate planning and me personally. So I'm thrilled to be able to talk to you and particularly thrilled that our audience can hear your insights today because look, we're all running law firms. Running a business on its own is difficult and challenging, let alone a business that actually forces our clients to face some of life's most biggest taboos. We're talking death, we're talking money. So as a money mindset coach, I'm sure you've got a lot of insights that you can share with us today about things that our clients might be going through, which we may not fully appreciate and also things that we might be doing ourselves that are unintentionally sabotaging our practise or not just letting us work to our full potential.
(02:29):
So yeah, death and money, big topic.
Denise (02:31):
Oh, geez. Yes, exactly. And I just want to say this off the top as well. I'm not a financial advisor. I'm not an accountant. I'm not a lawyer, obviously, like your clients are. And so my expertise doesn't come from a place of the law in particular. It is about the messy stuff. And it is the sometimes counterintuitive weird ways that ourselves and our clients act around money and the thoughts and feelings and beliefs that have accumulated over our lifetime that sometimes leads us to act in sabotaging ways. And as you said, nothing brings up people's money blocks more than extreme situations and stressful situations. So if you haven't even heard the term money blocks before people listening, it is the behaviours that sabotage our money, whether it's personally or professionally. And I've been running courses around this for a long time and writing books about it.
(03:33):
But I think coming from a place of curiosity, why do I act this way? Why do my clients act this way? I think helps people in so many different professions just to understand and have compassion for the weird ways that we sometimes sabotage income.
Tara (03:50):
Absolutely. And there's so many things where this comes up in our practise where we're setting prices, not following up our clients or not understanding why there's delays that if you sort of ... It's every day for us, but if we take a step back, we can look at why is this happening? Are there things I can do to make this easier or get out of my own way?
Denise (04:14):
Oh, absolutely. And you know what? A lot of the people I deal with, I'd say 99% of my audience are women. And I do feel like there's so much conditioning that we have to unlearn when we go into business. And even for a lot of us, we were told it's impolite to talk about money, that it's rude to talk about money. And so of course, setting a price, following up clients for money, having awkward conversations with clients about money or rates or boundaries even can honestly feel so scary to our nervous systems. It doesn't matter how much education we have, how competent we feel about our professional skills. When it comes to money, sometimes it makes us feel so stressed out. It feels so personal for women and it can sometimes be the thing that really derails people's success in business, not their competency, not their results with clients.
(05:13):
It's literally having to have these conversations about money that can feel really horrible.
Tara (05:18):
Yeah. And can you share your thoughts on the issues that might come up that we don't even recognise when we're talking about charging for something as personal as death?
Denise (05:30):
Oh my gosh, absolutely. Well, here's the thing. I've worked with people over so many professions now that whenever I speak to industry groups, it's really fascinating because people will always say, "Yeah, but we're the exception." And it's like, "But no, we really ... " And anywhere where it's extreme emotions, where people are dealing with health challenges with really personal stuff. I had a lady who helped women with prolapse and that's the sort of thing that you go into that profession from a real sense of caring and wanting to solve problems and helping people with this really debilitating health problem. And so of course her first thought is, "Yeah, but I'm exempt from money mindset stuff because I really truly want to help my clients." And they're dealing with something that's so painful. Of course, I want to help them. So who am I to charge well for what I do?
(06:35):
Because it feels then like the very fact that you're bringing money into something means that you don't care about clients. And this is so true for your audience as well, right? You're like, "I'm helping people deal with the most stressful situation that can come up." So it's really awkward then to send an invoice when they're dealing with so much stuff. And so I always think whenever I'm working with these different industry groups, 80% of the work is the same. We've all got to deal with our own internal thoughts and feelings about money and then of course there are nuances. Of course there's going to be nuances and consideration you need to make with your clients, but that doesn't mean that you can justify sabotaging money behaviour or that you can justify having bad boundaries with clients because that sort of stuff is so stressful for you and then that's not sustainable for your business either.
(07:36):
So just because people are dealing with stressful things doesn't mean that it's inappropriate to charge or expect boundaries to be respected.
Tara (07:45):
One of the sayings from your Money Bootcamp programme is, "I serve, I deserve." And that has really helped me in terms of we are bringing a lot of value to the client. I teach people in my programme about value pricing. So traditionally lawyers have just charged by the hour and in six minute increments. So we have this awful reputation of you just call up for two minutes, you get charged for six minutes, "Ooh, let's make this conversation go for eight minutes, even though it's a five-minute conversation so I can charge you for two units instead of one." And that's where a lot of us have come from. So even we are trying to change slowly the reputation of lawyers, but also create win-win pricing and complete transparency as you would with any other industry so people know what it costs before you begin. And I think that can be hard.
(08:54):
So it is more challenging in our space than some other lawyers, because they just go, "Well, my hourly rate is $500 an hour and it takes what it takes and you just have to pay it at the end." Whereas we say, well, with respect, the price is $5,000, you know what you're agreeing to and then we do it. But having the confidence to set the price in a way that pays you a living wage, provides for your family, respects the years and years. I know some of you listening have been lawyers for 10, 15, 20 years and that is so much learning and knowledge and everything that you put into your profession and the pricing should reflect that. But at the same time, we have this pressure of, well, who wants to pay to get their will done? And it's a very depressing thing for people to spend their hard earned money on.
(09:52):
So it can be really complex, but I really like, I serve, I deserve and I do deserve to be paid for the work I've done and to make a good living for my family.
Denise (10:04):
I have so many thoughts on pricing. Oh my gosh, we've spent hours on this, but what I think is the biggest problem for women, and I think this is what the problem often comes down to, is that we are looking for a critic proof price. We want to have a price that everybody agrees is fair and nice and we're a good person and that nobody's going to bulk out. Everyone's going to think it's fine. And if you're selling ice cream, making earrings at home, being a lawyer, there is no such thing as a critic-proof price. And that's the most painful thing for so many of us because we think if we can just find out what that is, we'll be happy and everyone will be happy. And I think again, it is quite a female thing sometimes for us as well. We want to build consensus, we want to be fair, we want to be affordable for people, but it is a lose-lose situation, right?
(11:07):
Because even if you are the cheapest estate planner in town, there'll always be someone who thinks that you're too expensive. It's so weird. Sometimes that doesn't even correlate to how much money they have.
(11:20):
You notice that?
Tara (11:22):
Denise, you might not have seen this, but there is like a new sort of industry coming out of non-lawyers offering to do online wills and they're really good at their digital marketing. So their wills might be like $60 or $99. And what I think is fascinating, it's just an online programme and an algorithm that produces something and there's no legal advice or confidence that it actually fits you, but they're really good at their marketing. So they lull people into a false sense of security that they're protected. But what is really interesting is a couple of times a year a year, they actually do the wills for free. They are giving them away for $0. And so how do we compete with this? We just almost have to ignore what they're doing because they can't even give them away if every Australian should, adult Australians should have a will if they can get a free will, but they don't.
(12:24):
Only about 50% of Australians have a will despite everybody ultimately dying. That's 100%. Absolutely. Absolutely. So it's really interesting that even when you say it's a critic-proof price, even a $0 price, a free will is not enough for people to take action.
Denise (12:48):
The other thing though I think that we're trying to do sometimes is you cannot compare your prices to other people. As you said, you've got to have blinkers around that because there is a lid for every pot. There is a client for every type of business that you want to run. That doesn't mean that everybody would want to work with you. Some people love the idea of, "Here's the package rate. I know what I'm paying for. There's no surprises." That would be a perfect fit for some people. Other people, they want to know exactly what am I ... They would want their inventory six minute thing. And so I think for again, no matter what you're selling, there is real value in going, "Who am I? What do I like to provide? What kind of clients do I want to work for? What works best for me?
(13:36):
Do I like to work on really detailed type of things? Or do I want to do the quick and dirty type stuff?" There is no right or wrong in business no matter what you're selling. You just have to be confident enough to say, "Hey, this is what I specialise in. " And I think that is part of the I serve I deserve. It's like, here's what I can offer and I deserve to find clients who will respect that, will pay that, will see that it's a win-win exchange. And then that doesn't mean that you serve everybody and that's okay as well. That is part of the I serve I deserve. But so many of us think, "No, I have to serve everybody. I have to be affordable for everybody. I have to twist myself in not to be able to do whatever anyone wants to do.
(14:22):
" And I don't get to choose in that because there's sometimes a scarcity thinking around that. But if I don't then make everything for everybody, then I won't get the clients. But actually sometimes the specificity is what attracts clients to us because then people go, "Hey, why don't you go with her because she's got transparent pricing or why don't you go with her? She's very caring and empathetic. Why don't you go with her, she can get it done really quick, but you can't be all things to all people. " And the way I liken this sometimes too, and an analogy that so many of us can understand is hairdressing salons, which that's a business that's been around for as long as humans have been around. And you can't be everything to everyone in one salon. You can't be the family friendly one that you can bring your three kids and they can eat nuggets in the corner in the crappy Ikea kitchen with all the toys, right as well as being the super high end exclusive experience where it has all matching uniforms and you get champagne and also get the quick five second haircut and leave with wet hair.
(15:29):
You can't do all of those things all in the on space. And we accept that in some businesses where we go, "Wow, that is a high end experience and that is a cheap and cheerful experience." But yet when we're solo business people, we do try and do that all the time and it's ridiculous that we try. The other thing around this, like averaging your pricing out with your competitors, I was getting a massage recently and I normally, I'm not having pricing conversations when I'm like a client, right? But I was just really curious and she mentioned a couple of things because I said to her, "I'm really impressed with your marketing because we're in a community group." And she was just like, "Hey, this is what I do. Here's how to book." And I said, "You made it so easy. I'd never heard about you before.
(16:21):
You made it really easy for me to book in. I was really impressed with ... I paid upfront and I was like, I just want to let you know it's a really seamless experience. It was really great." And she was like, "Oh, thank you. " And then she was sort of trying out these price points and I looked around at what everyone else is charging. I put myself in the middle and I was sitting there just like, "Oh, do I ... " And then I was like, "Yeah, that's what we try and do, but don't feel like you have to do that. It's okay for you to be more expensive than other people. " And she was like, "But I want to be affordable for everybody." And I'm like, "Yeah, but you're one person. It's okay for you just to say, this is where I sit in the market and there will be cheaper people who will be cheaper and there'll be people who will be more expensive in any market.
(17:06):
And as long as you feel like it's a win-win energy exchange, which means not only just the client feels like it's a win-win, you have to feel like it's a win-win because you are the finite resource in your business. And I always like to think there's always more clients. There's always so many people out there you can help, especially now where you're not restricted to just your town that you physically live in. Then you can be like, oh no, there are more clients. So it's okay if this person doesn't think that my price is worth it or this person's disrespecting me and I actually don't want to take them on as a client and I'm getting those red flags. We don't have to have that scarcity mindset anymore because there are more clients and you know what? There will be people who will buy a $5 template or whatever, but that's not your client and that's okay.
Tara (17:58):
Yeah. I mean, going back to your point about putting your price in the middle, someone has to be the most expensive. Why can't it be you?
Denise (18:07):
Exactly. But I think sometimes we put this morality around our pricing. Can I just say though, I don't think men do as much. I really don't. I do think, again, that this is something that women do and also I think then we all start to have our own almost guilty feelings about what we're allowed to charge or who we're allowed to charge to. And let me give you an example on this because when I first started my coaching business, I actually lived in the UK and I lived in London for about nine years and most of my first clients were American because I would go to American conferences and I charged in US dollars, right? I moved back home to Australia and I was like, oh, do I continue charging in US dollars because all of my expenses are US dollars, most of my clients are US dollars.
(18:57):
And I started sort of thinking, maybe I should give Australians a discount because they're my family essentially, right? And then I was like, yeah, but like my husband's British, I lived in Britain so it's not fair to charge British people. And then I was like, well, Kiwis are basically Australians. And then I was like, and Canadians are in the commonwealth, I can't charge them the same rate. And so my friends and family rate was like spanning the globe. And I know that's like an extreme global example, but I see this that happens in women sometimes we go, "Well, I can't charge single moms the same rate." So I'll give them a discount or, "Well, that person's got something similar to me. I've got a kid with autism, they've got a kid with autism." Or just all of these things we start to create these exceptions, especially if you're someone who is really good at really connecting with your clients, they start to feel like friends and family.
(19:54):
So then you're like, "Well, I can't charge them full rate because I know them or our kids go to soccer together or whatever it is. " And I think that is something that a lot of women can struggle with instead of just being really clean and clear on the pricing of just being like, "Well, this is what I charge." And not having all of the feelings and stress about it, just to be very clean and clear in our pricing. And that is actually a real gift that we can give people. I know for myself, if I'm a client and I'm working with someone where they're too embarrassed to talk about the price or they're very wishy-washy, it makes me feel incredibly unsafe as a client because I always think, am I going to offend them? Am I doing the right thing? And especially when they just haven't said what the price is, it makes me feel so uncomfortable as a client and not taken care of.
Tara (20:48):
Yeah, I totally hear you on that. Touching on two points you've said, knowing who it is you're serving, really drilling into your ideal client and who is for you and who is not a good match for you and your services and the way you like to work and then really feeling confident and trusting your pricing, what impact do you think that has on marketing and the importance of lawyers and in estate planning lawyers marketing and talking about what they do? Because I think a lot of us, we don't have any marketing experience. It's not something that was ever touched on in our degrees. You don't normally get involved in marketing when you're an employee in a law firm until you own a law firm. So it's really not a muscle we're used to exercising, but we have this thing where there's such a poor take up of estate planning in Australia.
(21:50):
How does that all fit together and trying to grow your firm through marketing as well instead of just waiting for people to find you?
Denise (21:58):
Of course. And I'm sure marketing is a bit of a dirty word sometimes in that industry. And I did a marketing degree and my flatmate and best friend, she did a law degree and I could see some of her friends who are quite snobby about that and just being like, "Marketing's a BS degree, whatever." But the thing is we're always marketing all the time. You can't help but market. And so don't think this is a dirty word, but also I think some people resist it because it feels inauthentic, but every part of what you do and how people are attracted to your work is marketing. On the other side of it, this is really funny actually, sometimes in the business world or the creative spaces, people will have the same knee-jerk response to marketing, but they'll say it in a different way. They go, "Oh, I don't need to do marketing. I'll just manifest the clients." And I'm like, "Babe, manifest just means to make real." Marketing is manifesting, right? It is manifesting the clients.
(23:00):
So let's find a bit of a middle point between marketing is BS and I'll just manifest the clients. So again, knowing who you are and who you want to attract, there's so many signifiers. Again, if we go back to the salon example, where there's so many unspoken things that just already show people, is that for me or not? And so we're doing that anyway and sometimes people will be so generic that it doesn't speak to anybody at all and sometimes we're too scared to be really truly ourselves. So let me tell you about my lawyer. So my lawyer, Sean Shotter, Shoda's lawyers in Newcastle and he's a surfer, he goes to Bali all the time and he does not hide that part of himself at all.
(23:52):
So his photos, he has pictures of him with his surfboard and he turns up to meetings sometimes in board shorts and a rashy because he's just been at the beach. And that for me was like immediately a signifier of, wow, this is a real person that I can connect to who has similar values to me. And my business is about helping people chill and prosper. And I was like, I don't want to work with a stuffy person who doesn't respect and appreciate the work that I do, which is sometimes nebulous and a bit woo-woo sometimes, right? So without him even having to say a word, but just the way that he presented himself was really attractive to me. However, that same branding might turn some people off and just be like, "I don't want to work with someone who just goes to the beach. That's really unprofessional." So I love that he's brought his whole self to his business and I love working with him because of who he is.
(24:57):
So that could be part of your marketing is it might go against your training and it might go against that feeling of like, "Oh no, I'm a lawyer. I have to be buttoned up. I have to do it this way." So there's always a spectrum of how much you want to bring in your own personal brand and preferences, but there is a power sometimes into kind of speaking to your clients in a very specific way. And so sometimes our clients are like us so we can just naturally be ourselves and they'll just be attracted to who we are. Sometimes though you can have a brand that kind of flexes, I think a little bit between it's not super bland but it's not super strong and so then people can almost put their own feelings onto it. And this is a brand that's not nothing to do with law, but I think this is a really good example.
(25:52):
L'Oreal does this really well because sometimes they do because we're worth it and it's a very connective kind of energy and that's when they bring in the spokespeople who are a little bit more down to earth, a little bit more relatable and then sometimes they really ramp it up and they'll have someone very glamorous and they'll be like, "Because I'm worth it. " And so it's the same tagline, but it can flex between a few different personality types. It can kind of go the spectrum between relatable and down to earth up to quite glamorous. I think that's a very interesting way of looking at your branding. It's like, do you want to be super, super strong and be like, "This is who we work with? " Or do you want to be a little bit more open but still be able to have a few personalities really see themselves in you?
(26:47):
Or do you want to be super kind of generic and not really bring any personality into it? There's no real right or wrong, but I think there is power in crowded markets where there's a lot of different options for people just to be like, "This is who we are. This is how we can serve you. " And that doesn't mean you don't take clients outside of that, but I think it's the 80 / 20 rule. And if you're like, "I love doing quick and dirty stuff, 80% of your work will be that. " And I mean, Sean will do this to me as well. I'll come to him sometimes with something and he'll go, "It's not our area of expertise. We can do it for you, but you'd be better off with this person." And I appreciate that honesty, but also I think again, it's that 80 / 20 rule, right?
(27:33):
It's less effort just to be honest about who you are and what you can do and who you like to work with and how you like to work and people self-select in and out of that. And then if 80% of your work is stuff that comes a little bit easier to you, those 20% ones then don't become the draining life force suck. And sometimes I've been in a position where the life suck ones are the 80% because I don't have the courage to really go after those people that I could really truly serve. I'm sure you've been in that situation too. It does sucks.
Tara (28:10):
Yeah, exactly. It's like I'm not the right fit for you and that's okay. I don't have to change the way that I work to suit you. It's just we don't have to work together.
Denise (28:22):
No, absolutely. And pricing is part of marketing too.
(28:26):
Right? Pricing is one of those signifiers that say to people, "This is for me or this is not for me. " And so you can really distil that marketing down into like, "What's my message? Who am I? " It doesn't mean that you have to do marketing in the same way as everyone else. Sometimes people love to do social media. That's part of their branding where the fun, relatable, whatever it is. Sometimes people are just like tried and true stuff. Sometimes people are word of mouth and that's their marketing and they don't advertise. There's no right or wrong, but don't poo-poo it or think that clients will necessarily magically turn up if I just work quietly and work hard. It's okay to be visible. It's okay to ask for the sale, it's okay to put yourself out there, but there's so many different ways that you can do that.
Tara (29:14):
I think one of the challenges that we have is we're selling a product that people don't even know they need until it's an emergency, but we don't want to be meeting them when it's an emergency. We want to be meeting them before that. And even if they realise they need it, it's not something like there's so much around them wanting to spend money on it. It's not fun. It's confronting. It can bring up a lot of emotions about their vulnerability or shame around the state of their finances or their personal relationships. They can think that they might jinx themselves. So it's really hard to promote a product like that.
(30:02):
But at the same time, we have members in our community who do the most beautiful job of showing up authentically and just sharing their stories, what they're seeing that works well and how it can be life changing for families, where it goes badly and just consistently showing up and sharing their stories in a way that makes people come to the realisation themselves. But it is hard to ... We're not selling a beautiful lipstick that is just a bit of pocket change. We're asking people to spend a lot of money where they could be getting their Botox or their tattoos or a new handbag or in a cost of living crisis just paying for everything.
(30:53):
So that is one of the challenges that we have as well about people don't even know they need our product.
Denise (31:00):
Absolutely. So yeah, there's so many angles to this as well because different clients have different motivations for anything. And so some people are motivated by safety and protection. Some people are motivated by caring for their families. Some people are motivated by growth and what that next thing is. And I think again, there's no right or wrong into how you share these stories. And marketing is stories. Marketing is about bringing the personal into it. And so my grandmother died without a will. She was 65. She'd been sick for a good five years with breast cancer and then other problems. And it caused so many problems for our family around everything, jewellery, money, loans that had happened within families, like all the stuff that you guys see every day. And so I think again, sharing these stories will get people at different points in their journey. I made a will from that experience.
(32:09):
And because I remember talking to my husband's mom about this too, because I was saying, "My nana died without a will and it's something that's really important." And I mentioned something, I was like, "Well, do you have your will sorted?" And she took it in a really wrong way. She was like, "Well, you're not getting all my stuff." And I was like, "Oh, that's not what this is about. This is about saving your family from stress." And so it's about sharing these stories, I think that sometimes people won't get the urgency, but they'll get the pain of like, "Oh my God, this isn't about me. This is about my kids." And so they'll want to do it from, "Hey, this is something really deeply generous that can happen for your family." So there's so many different angles, but we feel guilty I think sometimes about marketing it from those different angles because it feels mercenary, it feels transactional, but you've got to meet people where they are.
(33:08):
It's the medicine that you, every single person listening knows how important this is, but everyone needs a different reason for the medicine. Do you remember Mary Poppins in the movie how it's the same medicine, but it tastes different for every kid? Do you remember that? Yeah. And it tasted like what they needed. And I always think this about the medicine thing around marketing. I go, you're selling essentially the same thing or maybe your work is 80% the same for everybody, but everyone wants to feel like it's customised to them and everyone has a little key that needs to unlock their lock. And it's deeply kind and generous I think for us to be specific in those triggers. We're not doing it to manipulate people and marketing can be deeply manipulative, of course, but it's like some people need to hear different things. So for some people it's like, don't waste what you've built your life building.
(34:07):
And it's appealing to the ruler personality like me where it's like, "Oh yeah, I don't want my kids to screw this up all the stuff that I've built." So yeah, of course I want to have some control beyond the grave kind of thing. That would deeply appeal to some personalities, right? But some personalities, that's not enough of a motivation for them of protection of what I've built. For some people, it does have to come from protection of their family and deeply caring for their family. And you can see that they're sometimes two different personality types. The work for you is probably exactly the same, but so that could be then you might decide that you really like working with one personality over the other. And this is what I do as well in my money archetype course is to give people permission to be like, "You can build your business exactly the way you want it if you're really clear about who and why you're serving these different groups of people.
(35:08):
" It's not mean, it's not excluding anybody, it's just being honest and then it's like it should be win-win then because then you go, "Great. So another person got their will." And it must be so unsatisfying if you're like the person thinking, "God, half of Australians don't have a will. It feels like I got to catch them all like Pokemon suffering." So then you can be like, "Oh, another person, cool." And I'm so glad that I marketed in that way or I'm so glad that I had the courage to speak about it in that way because great, we got another one, not from an evil point of view, but it's like, yay, so satisfying.
Tara (35:50):
Oh, it is. I mean, I truly believe that we're changing families lives, especially if we're using testamentary trusts and those types of structures as well and making those available to everyday families. So touching on one of the things you mentioned, a will is almost a parent's last act of love towards their children. And so when there is no will or there's an old will that's out of date that doesn't necessarily reflect the current circumstances or wishes, it can just be heartbreaking and it is really hard to repair those wounds when the person is dead and no longer here to do it. So there's so much, obviously we're like, "Well, yeah, don't pay any more tax than you need to and the money going to the right place." But it actually has, if you look at heart-led estate planning, it has such big consequences for families that we are just trying to avoid.
(36:53):
Because if we were just in it for the money, we'd all be the litigation estate planning lawyers because they do charge by six minute intervals. They don't care what they're charging. There's a big pool of money, which is the inheritance that's just paying the fees and they will run down that inheritance on their fees and the other side's fees and not even think twice.That is where the real money is if you're an estate planning lawyer. But we are trying to do it from the front end to help these families avoid ending up in that situation.
Denise (37:28):
And I think it's okay to tell these stories because I don't mind saying this. It created a deep rift in our family. This is 20 years. All my mom's siblings, none of them talk to each other anymore. I'm so sorry to hear that. It is. It's so deeply painful because I think too, she didn't want to do stuff like that. She didn't want to put together a will because she didn't want to have those conversations and she wanted to be fair, but it actually caused the opposite effect. And this is the sort of stuff that I think it's deeply caring to share these stories with our clients, not to scare them, not to manipulate them because this is the reality. And everyone listening, you perform a really important service and the more that you can just share that and share ... Actually, this is what I talk about in one of my books, my two-step marketing process.
(38:27):
I mean, this has personally made me millions of dollars, but it's also just such an easy way of doing it. It's like share what you know and make offers, right? Share what you know is like, this is the consequence. This is how you can help yourself. And you can give free information as much as you can in your industry to be like free tips and free whatever and you make an offer on top of that. So it's like, "Hey, have you thought about who gets your jewellery? Or if you thought about who has to look after your dog, share the bits that you can share to get people to know, and trust you, realise you're someone they want to deal with. And then making the offer is, and here's how I can help you. " And you make it really easy for people, whether it's a free or a paid initial consult, here's what my package is, transparent pricing, making it really easy for people to get into your world and not have those wishy-washy feelings where they get all those no signals.
(39:28):
That is actually deeply caring. So share what you know, make offers. That's what marketing can be distilled down to.
Tara (39:35):
Yeah, I love that. And touching on your comment about systems, how easy it was to book in for the massage, you just went and did it. When we are working with clients who might already be sort of hesitant about embarking on the process, I think if we can have a customer service sort of funnel that reduces all the barriers for them and just makes it as easy as possible, I think that is really important as well.
Denise (40:05):
Absolutely. And again, I serve, I deserve, right? You can be a deeply caring, empathetic person with endless patience for your clients, but that doesn't mean that you have to be a matter, have people who overstep your boundaries, over deliver but not charge at all for it. It's not an either or. You can care deeply and be paid well for what you do. And I think people, again, they appreciate that clean energy around stuff like that. They feel taken care of and don't feel guilty about it because it's such an important thing. And the cost of my nan, which you think 25, 30 years ago, it wouldn't have been crazy expensive for her just to make some really simple things for us has created so much outsized animosity and problems that she would never have anticipated. And so that's the stuff where you're helping people to avoid, "I serve, I deserve." You're allowed to charge well for that.
Tara (41:11):
Well, firstly, I'm really sorry that your family had to go through that and experience it firsthand, but I'm thrilled to hear that you have your own will done. Can we talk about, well, two things. So yeah, I think what you've just said can really be summarised as the reason people don't go ahead is not just because of the price and it being too much. There's so many reasons. Something you say a lot is the fortune is in the follow-up and I think a lot of our listeners get nervous about following up. We feel like, "Hi, just here to talk about the time you're going to die." But it's actually, I think firstly, so important for increasing sales or clients and also it is serving people because we're all busy, things get away. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of the follow-up?
Denise (42:08):
Absolutely. So I have ADHD. I also have three kids, four fur babies. I run a business and so things just fall off my radar and I always think a confused mind says no. Sometimes if the process is too difficult, it just goes in my too hard basket. If there's too many options or things are too stressful, it just goes off my radar. So this is not the same but similar. I moved to a new place, suburb a couple of years ago and there's a facial lady and a Botox lady two minutes from my house. It took me a year to book appointments with her because I had to make a phone call to do it. No online booking. It was like, "Hey, to book in your session, call us." It took me a year. And then as soon as I booked in with her, I spent thousands of dollars over the next couple of months in lasers and Botox and whatever it was.
(43:08):
And for me, that is always the biggest barrier is how do I connect? What's the process to get in with you? If someone makes it really easy for me and again, it's like, here's how we work together. Well, here, click here. What I hate is when someone sends me an email and says, "When do you want to meet?" Yeah, it's the worst. Show me the options so I can look at my calendar at the same time. Then I'm like, "What's available? Well, you can have this ... " I'm like, "This, I can't do it. " Even if I get to the phone call, which might take me a year. So thinking about that, a confused mind says no. What systems can you put into place before the follow-up even happens? Same thing again, different industry, but price point's about the same, right? I do sewing stuff.
(44:02):
I love learning sewing. I did a sewing course recently and I wanted to learn how to make dance costumes, tutus and all that kind of stuff. Found a lady locally who does it, had to fill in this form. She did not send me anything after that.
(44:17):
And I wanted to do one-on-one tuition. It probably would've been a couple of thousand dollars to do it, no follow up and no system. And you've got to think, when are people thinking, "Shit, I've really got to do my will." Probably at night when the kids are in bed and they're watching their TV show and they're scrolling and they're going, "Shit, I really need to take care of that. What can I do? What can I do about this situation? Oh, I have to send an email. Oh, I have to make a phone call. Oh, no, I have to remember tomorrow." So what can we do to make it seamless and easy for people? Because all of those little barriers, just for me as a mom with ADHD, not to mention all the other things that might be coming up for people they might be dealing with grief or a parent in hospital or whatever it is.
(45:04):
So sometimes we need to look at our sales process with an outside eye. Is my website easy to navigate on a phone when someone's scrolling when their husband's snoring next to them? Years ago when I was having problems breastfeeding, again, I was looking for breastfeeding support. So many things were not mobile friendly. I'm doing this with one hand.
(45:30):
And I found this lady who offered breastfeeding support, a couple of things. One lady was like, "Buy my ebook. It's like this 200 page ebook with all the details, not mobile friendly." This other lady was like, "Okay, are you bottle fed or breastfed with your baby? Is your baby three months old, six months old, 12 months old?" And I just went, "This is for me. That's the solution." So sometimes on the website it might be, is this something is this urgent? Is this not urgent? Is this for you? Is this for a family member? It could just be little simple things that you do to make people feel like, "Wow, this is for me and I know what the next step is. " And then whether it's getting their details or whatever, don't be afraid to follow up with people, but not an open-ended thing of, "Hey, just following up, when do you want to meet?" It could be, "Hey, just following up.
(46:23):
By the way, do you know I offer a 15 minute free consult? Click here and you can book your time in. " And just like us connecting here, I use a system Calendly in it, put the link of how we're going to connect. What are we talking about? And then I can send automatic reminders. So we both get an email. We've got an interview today. You can also set an automatic follow-up, which I don't do, but it could be, "How was the interview? By the way, send the recording here." There's so many different little things that we can do, but for most people, life gets in the way or something is broken down in the process where they've gone, "Oh, but maybe I can't call the person because I don't have the death certificate or I don't have this or the process is scary to them." And I say the same thing for people who are accountants.
(47:16):
Some of your clients have their own money stuff and their own issues or they have trauma around dealing with people in authority. They feel like they're going to be judged. This is why people clean before the cleaners come, right? And I did the same thing when I hired my first bookkeeper. I kept on saying to her, "Oh, I'll just fix up all my receipts first before I send you stuff." And so she was waiting for months and months for this work to get started. Finally, she gave me the best gift. She said, "Denise, pack up all those receipts in an old shoebox, send it to me or I'll come pick it up from your house. It'll be like Christmas for me because I love helping people streamline the mess." And I think if you can again, have that sort of compassion to your clients, make it easy, understand that they're going to have their own stuff coming up.
(48:02):
That's part of it as well of the follow-up of like, "I know life's probably stressful. Here's how we make it easier. Here's the next step."
Tara (48:08):
Denise, you have been so generous with everything today. I'm so grateful.
Denise (48:13):
I told you we would go ... I told you we'd go more than 10 minutes because I can talk.
Tara (48:16):
We might need 55 minutes and look, I think we can just go on and on. So if what we've talked about today is resonating with you, I would really encourage you to check out Denise's podcast.
Denise (48:29):
It's called Chill and Prosper. Chill and Prosper with Denise Duffield-Thomas. And we talk about money mindset on there and all that kind of stuff. My books are available on Amazon and all the places. My website's denisedt.com. I'm super easy to find Instagram @denisedt. And you don't have to be any particular profession to be in my world because we work with so many people across professions because again, 80% of the stuff we're dealing with the same issues and it's just those little nuances for different people's professions that again, you think you're the exception, but it's all the same stuff. It's humans dealing with human stuff.
Tara (49:08):
Yeah. And that's exactly what we do in estate planning. So I think we'll have to leave it there. Denise, thank you so much on behalf of all our listeners. Thank you, Tara. We're really grateful to have you and thanks for tuning in today and I'll see you next week.
