Tara (00:51):
Welcome back to the Art of Estate Planning Podcast. It's your host, Tara Lucke. I am just jumping in with a little note from me before our real episode.
(01:02):
So in this episode, I interview Karren. She is here to talk to us about the role of ethical wills in estate planning. So I just wanted to jump in with a few more comments before we dive into the full conversation, especially because I think sometimes an ethical will can be viewed as a little controversial. So I just wanted to put a few notes or bumpers around the conversation that I have with Karren. So I think that an ethical will can be an extremely powerful document when it is done well, but there's a few parameters I think that we need to keep in mind to make sure that it does actually add and compliment the legal process rather than detract from it or create uncertainty. So I really think a ethical will which deals with attestator's values, communicates life lessons, family history, shares their hopes and dreams for their loved ones and their beneficiaries can be so powerful, especially to compliment the very rigid and dry and formal legal documents.
(02:25):
We do have to be cautious though, not to create risks that undermine our legal documents. For instance, we don't want there to be any concern that what is in the ethical will is actually an informal legal will. For that reason, I think it's really important that the ethical will is done in conjunction with, at the same time and in collaboration with the legal process so that the lawyer running the estate planning matter can have oversight about what's included in the ethical will to make sure that it really is sort of storytelling and value-based guidance rather than things that will interrupt the legal process. I also think it's quite important, especially when we're on notice that people are not being provided for equally or there are contentious distribution of assets. For instance, Karren discusses in the conversation the unequal distribution of an estate where the main asset is a huge family farm and there's multiple children.
(03:35):
In those scenarios, I think I would like to see the ethical will used as a starting point for communication while the test data is still alive, that we don't just write it and then it sits there and doesn't come out until someone dies. I also think it could be a jumping off point for starting a collaborative estate planning process as well. And then lastly, there's different strategies and views about how much we actually document a test data's reasons for doing something. So especially in scenarios where we're on notice of family provision, sometimes there's guidance that we don't actually want to document too much about the reasons and motives. Now we have a great podcast episode number 17 from a Queensland barrister, Kate Barnes. In that episode, she's called Kate Brewer, but now her surname is Barnes and a Queensland lawyer, Michelle Davis. And they talk about where there are factual scenarios of disentitling conduct.
(04:46):
Is it helpful or not to document reasons? And I'll spoil the ending, but they basically say a lot of the times it's not helpful. It depends on the types of reasonings and the way that it's documented, but they almost discourage these long letters documenting they did this to me and they're undeserving. We counter that though with the legislation in South Australia where test data reasons are actually legislated as being a relevant consideration when evaluating family provision applications. So take with that what you will. I think it needs to be on a case by case. I just wanted to, I guess, round out the conversation that I have with Karren from my legal perspective to say, I think when done well, an ethical will or a letter along those lines can be extremely powerful to compliment the dry, boring, impersonal legal process, as long as we can manage our risks, of course.
(05:53):
So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Karren. If you have any questions, feedback, comments, we can always take this conversation online into the Art of Estate Planning Facebook group so that we can continue the discussion further if there's anything that you would like to add to it. Enjoy this conversation with Karren. We have our special guest, Karren from Forever Told, and she is here to talk to us about the power of storytelling in estate planning and legacy building. Welcome, Karren.
Karren (06:29):
Hi, Tara. Thank you so much for having me and hi to all the listeners and viewers.
Tara (06:34):
Oh, it's a pleasure. And I always love connecting with somebody who shares a passion for estate planning as much as we do. So before we dive into it, can you tell everybody a little bit about your background and what you do at Forever Told?
Karren (06:50):
Sure. So I'm a bit of a veteran of storytelling in that I started my career 30 years ago, but we won't tell anybody, give away my age. And I really spent the bulk of my time in television production. So I've worked with a lot of fabulous people and really creative people, and all of it has had something to do with storytelling. So my history kind of ranges from news and current affairs, so live action, things that are happening literally organically in front of us and bringing that to a viewer either in television or radio, mostly television. And then from the sublime to the ridiculous, I've also written, directed, and produced programmes like PlaySchool, which I know, so your little ones would be familiar and you would be familiar because it's - I am familiar.
Tara (07:47):
Oh my goodness.
Karren (07:49):
It's celebrating its 60th year this year actually in Australia. So there's a breadth of experience there, which now I am 55, full disclosure. I'm at the point in my career where I really want to make that storytelling a little bit more intentional, a little bit more directed, and to put the people who don't have the opportunity to be front page news front page in their own families and their own history. So that's how I've come to create Forever Told. And what Forever Told is an opportunity for memoir storytelling to your own personal family of your own personal story. It can either stand alone or incorporate family history. I have a fantastic genealogist on staff who helps support because that's a facet that I'm not particularly okay with. So he helps or doesn't help. He does all of the fabulous genealogy side of work with us.
(08:48):
And then there's also our new offering, which is an intentional ethical will, which is something that you particularly would be interested in. And that is an opportunity for the traditional succession pathway, which holds a will, a written will that's legally binding and absolutely is essential. But the ethical will, the intentional ethical will sits beside it, not a replacement by any stretch. It sits beside it and it is giving the family the why for the decisions that are being made for the what. So the legal will will tell us what is going to everybody. The intentional ethical will is a driven process that's very directed by us to make sure that we carve the story through to tell the people that are receiving the will or the ethical will the why. So that's pretty much us.
Tara (09:44):
What an incredible lead.
Karren (09:45):
You're still stuck on play school, aren't you?
Tara (09:47):
Yes, I am. What an exciting and creative background. What I'm stuck with is how you go from TV and radio and how cool and creative and exciting that is and end up in the succession law space.
Karren (10:04):
Yep. I started writing memoirs and found myself in succession. I think, Tara, the reason is because I really noticed very strongly when I was researching where the holes in people's lives were. And memoirs is a huge opportunity as is family history to pluck those holes. But I really did find myself constantly drawn back to succession because, and that's why we've come up with the intentional ethical will. The ethical will itself isn't a new concept. That's actually something that's been around for centuries, especially in the Jewish community. Your Jewish listeners and viewers would be fully aware with an ethical will. What we are doing is making it the intentional part of it is for it to be specific to succession and to stand beside a traditional will, whereas a traditional ethical will doesn't do that. So that's how we've kind of landed in the succession space.
(11:04):
Really clearly I'd noticed that there was a gap emerging for my research purposes between the lawyers who are dealing with these families and can see these massive splits going on because I think the communication level's not there. The understanding isn't there of why a parent or a grandparent or whoever it is that's creating the succession is making those decisions. So that's where I'm hoping because all of the work I'm doing now is really based around the idea of support for families to bridge that gap of unfortunately division that can happen, especially when it comes to money, as you would know better than anybody.
Tara (11:55):
Yeah. And you've said it so well, Karren. One of the most heartbreaking about a person dying and people being upset and wanting to challenge what is in the legal estate plan is it's generally driven by the fact that people don't understand the reasons and the motives and why a decision was made in a particular way. And a lot of the time they never ever have a way to find out the answer. It's a question that cannot be answered because obviously they're dead now and there just is such a huge emotional wound and hole that often that they're trying to fill through a legal process or it's just sort of an unanswered question that they have to keep living with. And look, I'm the first to admit from the lawyer's perspective, firstly, our skill is not storytelling. In fact, I don't know if my listeners like any creativity we once might've had has really been bashed out of us by the time we've gone through law school and a few years in a law firm.
Karren (13:05):
I think you've managed to keep a little bit of your creativity in storytelling. Don't be too harsh. But I understand what you're meaning. A lot of lawyers, just from time point of view, apart from anything else, you need to manage the client's time because trying to be supportive of them isn't A, your forte, you're not trained to do it. But also every time all those minutes on the clock that you are trying to support them is costing them money.
Tara (13:34):
Yeah. A lot of us, it's not our skillset. We're like legal clauses go here and it's an entirely different way of approaching it. And I mean, there's even just a spectrum in terms of estate planning being approached as a draught this to go here and that's the end of it versus actually what we're trying to do is craft a legacy, which is a lot greater than a will. But a lot of the lawyers who listen to this podcast, we're in the, let's try and create a legacy kind of approach. And when people come to us saying, I want to do this, we do dive into a bit about why rather than just writing it down and being the mouthpiece. But that's really a drop in the ocean compared to what you are doing at Forever Told and really diving into the history and the value.
(14:28):
So can you tell us a little bit more about the process or the types of things that this process can bring out?
Karren (14:37):
Well, thankfully there are people like you and the listeners, similar lawyers like you that are really interested in this because it is family saving often. And I try to get to people early in the process, so when they're actually doing the succession planning, because I think we all agree that increasingly it's becoming a thing to not wait until the end and then quickly cobble together a succession plan. It's more bring people into the process earlier. So I'd really love for this process to take part hand in hand then and then leave the door open. And so this can go hand in hand with the will. My wish would be that it doesn't actually wait until the will's reading for this to come out. My hope would be that this is the opportunity for the parents. Let's just use that as the example. The parents say to their three children, "We have a document that we would like to share with you, and this is how our will and our succession looks, and this is why we've done it.
(15:49):
And there it is, they either take it away and read it and come back in a month and we'll have a round table discussion once everyone's digested it and have their thoughts or however each family chooses to do it. But it's not something that if I had my way, it would be something that would be done in advance of that process as a tool of communication. And then the questions can be asked while the people are alive. The idea of it is to take that barb away from the not knowing and giving them the answers to why. An example I've used frequently is let's say we've got four generations and we're succeeding to the fifth generation. Obviously four generations ago, there was very little communication. So we're trying to change things. We collectively, you and anybody who's in succession is trying to change that. If we were able to go to mom and dad or mom and dad come to us and say, listen, we sold a quarter of the farm to Old Farmer Joe next door.
(16:59):
And nobody could understand or nobody talked about why it was just a thing that happened. And the kids are now going, we could have had, because now that land is worth 10 times what it was sold for. And they don't understand it. And if their parents didn't do something like an intentional ethical will, they might never know these children. Their parents could die. Their children would never know why Old Farmer Brown got or Old Farmer Joe got this quarter of a piece of land. In the process of telling the story, we find out, for example, had they not sold him that block of land, they'd have lost the lot. It was a decision. It was the lesser of two evils. They had to do something. Now, Old Farmer Joe used to babysit the kids when mum was doing it tough and had to go to work and dad was on the farm.
(17:47):
And so he used to come and look after the children. He's almost part of the family. He had the money. It meant that it stayed still close. It was still with somebody that was cared about. Then all of a sudden, that quarter of a block of land that was sold to Farmer Joe doesn't feel like a wasted opportunity. We haven't lost anything. We've gained information that tells us now, "Oh, I remember Farmer Joe looked after us. Is that because Mom had to go to work? I didn't know you were doing it tough. I didn't know that we didn't. Because as parents, we make sure there's food on the table. We don't tell our children why we've had to go away for the day as a mom or a dad or whoever. We just get on with it. This is an opportunity to say we would not have this farm at all had we not made that difficult decision." So it's an informing opportunity, communication tool, an ability for people to ask questions and penny drop.
(18:46):
I get it, mom and dad. Thank goodness. And we grew up with the kids next door, so our children will grow up with their children. So Farmer Joe was a good choice because he's almost an extension of our family. So yeah, I think it's really worthwhile. I'm a bit excited about it.
Tara (19:05):
Karren, you sent me through a bit of an example about, I think behind it was a will that was dealing with farm succession again, where there are some off-farm children and one on-farm child. And the big challenge that we nearly always have in those scenarios is they don't usually have an estate pool, an asset pool that can be split in equal thirds. And we've got different assets and the farm is loaded with responsibility and often debt. And then we've got some other assets that are more liquid. And in that example, it just so beautifully shared what the parents were thinking about why they had decided to allocate the estate in a particular way. Do you want to elaborate a bit more on that use case for the ethical will?
Karren (19:59):
Sure, thank you. I'm glad you were able to have a look at that because it's something that I've created to share with people exactly like you, lawyers who are in the space who have a professional lens applied now to what the ethical will looks like. And I'm happy obviously to share this with any of the listeners and viewers who would like to get a copy.
Tara (20:22):
Well, let's put it in the show notes if you're comfortable with that.
Karren (20:26):
Of course.
Tara (20:27):
Okay. So if you want to have a read it'll be in the show notes, so you can go and click on that and have a look as Karren speaking.
Karren (20:33):
Yeah. It's not actually very long, to be honest. It's probably 20 pages and it's an easy read, but each chapter is started by a professional lens that gives you as the lawyer a quick snapshot of the purpose of the next couple of pages that tell the story. And in the story that we're sharing, we've got three children, two girls and a boy. The first girl actually is the second part of the story because the farm in fact goes to child number two because child number two has lived and breathed the farm from birth. And there's little anecdotes about her running around in her big sister's boots, clobbing around because she had to follow dad and pop to tend to the farm. And the first child that was born was a girl, so they had two girls. So traditionally girls don't tend to be the first, and this is not necessarily the case, but if you think you've got four girls and a boy, people just generically think the boy will get the farm.
(21:37):
It's not the case in this story. So the girl, that first girl is a person who wants to see the world. She grew up climbing the mountains of the farm because she wanted to see what was on the other side. So she takes off and lives in New York. The second girl is born and lives, breathes the farm life. And the third child is a boy who actually is a mechanical engineer, really super clever. They sent him a way to boarding school, which was the best thing for him. So the entire process is built around, in this particular story, is built around the fact that children are individuals. They aren't necessarily going to be what you as a parent think they should be. And this family were very comfortable allowing each of their children to be who they wanted to be. One of them happened to want the farm.
(22:28):
So in the ethical will, that child inherits, as you said, Tara, the good and the bad. So there's debt, there's lots of hard work. There is responsibility because it's not just about keeping the farm going, it's about the legacy that follows with that. So all of those things are encumbered upon that person. But what we do in that story is allow the other two, so the one that lives in New York and living the high life and is in some sort of entertainment industry, gets to take the special things from the farm that mean something to the family history with her. And the son who's married with children, lives in the city, gets to take things that are special and important with him. This is always going to be home because the child who can make it always be home is the one who's going to carry that legacy forward.
(23:19):
You will always all be able to come back to it. And it in 20 pages basically encapsulates that story and tells those children, "We love you equally." And what the ethical will hopefully is doing is saying, "You actually don't want a third of that. You want a third of the ability to come back home and she's going to be the one that keeps that going for you, for your family, for the legacy of our future."
Tara (23:46):
Yeah. And as part of that, they've communicated their important values in making the decisions. So for instance, keeping the farm going and not splitting it up or not having it leave the family bloodline. I think it's really hard because they say estate planning when you're a parent is your last act of love towards your children. And I really think children can perceive that. As you said, if they don't understand and they're not happy with how an estate plan has been done in respect to them, they can really feel unloved. And how do you ever change that feeling if they don't know what their parents were thinking?
Karren (24:34):
And I think one of the really, that is so important, Tara. Thank you for bringing that up because what this has the ability to do, especially for people who are not articulate in their love, so they find it difficult to say, "I love you. I have no problem with it. Other people in my family absolutely do." So you might have a mum or a dad, for example, who adores their children, but it would just be beyond them to say it out loud. This gives them the opportunity to say it without actually having to verbalise it. And the version of the demonstration that you were referring to before really says that. And they're constantly saying how much they love them in all of the ways. So I think it's a really great way of actually saying to your children or to your grandchildren or the neighbour or whoever it is that you decide to your succeeding to that I do love you and I do have respect for you, but you need to understand that this is a big undertaking.
(25:40):
So it gives you the opportunity to do all of it and put your ethics, your morals, your hopes for the future, all of those things forward that a will doesn't necessarily do as a standalone document. A legal will, I mean.
Tara (25:55):
Yeah. I mean, as part of the estate planning process that a lot of our lawyers who are listening would do, they would offer what we call a letter of wishes, which is a morally binding letter that accompanies the will. And a lot of the time that's where we put in the legalish stuff that doesn't quite belong in the will. And it's just something that a client can update on their own. And we actually had a discussion in our TT Precedence Club recently because one of the lawyers in the club was saying, "What is the take up for the letter of wishes that everyone else is happening? Because a lot of my clients aren't bothering to do it."
Karren (26:39):
That's interesting.
Tara (26:40):
Or they're not really putting a lot in there. And there's definitely space for some of the more heartfelt wisdom and information that the testator wants to leave behind. And a lot of people don't tackle it. And I have to say for my own letter of wishes, I found it incredibly emotional and something that I had to keep approaching. I've got two little boys, so the idea of me not being here and them living life without their mom or both their parents just makes me want to start bawling. And the stuff that they would need that I want them to know from me, it's like, oh my God, I've got to be in the right head space to think about this. So I can absolutely see how important it is to have somebody skilled in storytelling and extract, almost coaxing these stories and information out of them because we really, I think, do have to dig deep to do this on our own.
Karren (27:44):
You do. And the thing is that it's often easier to tell somebody than to sit and write. A lot of people find the idea of sitting in front of the computer and typing or handwriting or however they choose to get the information across. You get there and you freeze and you think, "I don't know what to say. Dear John, what's next?" Whereas if you are just having a conversation, which is how we do the intentional ethical will, it's just a conversation just like you and I are having now.
Tara (28:13):
And I think the challenging thing with estate planning too, it's our whole legacy. It's what we are leaving behind from our time here. But many people only make their estate plan once in their life or they have never done it before. Most people's very taboo. So a lot of the time there's not a lot of open conversation about what other people are doing or what your parents have done and why they did it. So a lot of the time everyone is just coming to this very inexperienced. They don't have good examples or role models of how to do it in a considered legacy building way. So I do feel like having someone to support them through this process, it's just so important.
Karren (29:08):
I obviously agree. But it's just because I think people today are different to they were in the past. But you're right, there is still this thing of shush, we can't talk about money. Money's a really bad thing for the family to discuss. And it's actually not about money, what I'm bringing to the table. The intentional ethical will is very different to the legal will. In my mind, they sit side by side. So that the reading of the legal will at all times, the intentional ethical will that's sitting beside it is the intention, literally the intention behind this, the reason why. And hopefully, as I said previously, that means that they will have those conversations while people are still alive and here to ask and answer questions.
Tara (29:57):
So Karren, can you step us through a Little bit of the practical process. How long does it take? Is it sort of interview style and then you work up a draught? What does that look like?
Karren (30:09):
Okay, great question. Thank you. So yes, it would be very much like this, exactly what we're doing. I would have a phone conversation or a Skype or online conversation first. Or if they're local to me, obviously I would meet them however, but the first initial conversation is about what, where, who and when. So we get all of the real information about who all the players are in the piece. I then also find out because conflict is often part of this. So there might be, let's say a child who turned their back on the family and went and did their own thing. Now the family in that instance may be deciding we don't mind, not that we don't mind, we'll forgive that because they're still our child. So we're giving them a quarter of what's happening. Or they might be saying that person made that decision and we are now taking them out of the equation.
(31:08):
That sort of information's really helpful to know right upfront. So I get all of that kind of nitty-gritty stuff out of the way before we do the interview properly because it informs how directed I am to each child. If there's one child that exists but is not going to exist in this, that's a whole chunk I don't have to put the people through. I don't have to traumatise them by saying, tell me about Jack when it's not to be discussed. So that's helpful. Then I have a question and answer session basically. And each one's different because it's informed by what I found out in the first discussions, but it's a guided information session about what they're hoping to achieve and then it gets broken down. So each person would get a chapter. This is why you are getting this or this is how I feel about that or these are the things I hope you bring to the table after we've gone sort of thing.
(32:07):
And then it just wraps up with the. I mean, it really is like all good stories, it's got a beginning, a middle, and an end. It's not creating rocket science. It's just making it all kind of bundled into a beautifully bound book that can be kept forever. And the beautiful thing about what we are doing too is I'm putting in a stack of blank pages at the end so that the family who get this can write their own stories and continue the process to their own children. So it's kind of like the old-fashioned family Bible that used to get handed down. A lot of farmers and things would know in succession that was basically what you got. You got the Bible and you wrote your children's name in it and then it just got handed down and handed down and that was the treasured heirloom.
(32:53):
Well, I'm hoping that this intentionally driven directed document that explains what happens to this family gets passed down and added to as an heirloom.
Tara (33:05):
That's beautiful.
(33:06):
Yeah. And in terms of timing, do you find it's like a month or two long or does it drag? I mean, we experience a lot of delays in estate planning, so does it drag on based on people prioritising? I imagine it's hard. People have to dig deep a bit and open up an emotional side of them. So yeah, does that drag on or you find, oh look, it takes about a month and that can fit very neatly.
Karren (33:34):
It usually takes about a month. You're actually pretty spot on. Because normally when they approach Forever Told, they are keen, willing, wanting to do this process. They have a little bit of understanding predominantly from a succession lawyer they're working with. It's not a known at this stage anyway, not known in the general community as a thing. So certainly succession lawyers are increasingly suggesting this as an avenue because it is targeted and tailored and we do specialise in it. But also it doesn't, because they come to us with that willingness right from the get-go, it means that the questions aren't confronting. We're not tapping into people who are like, "Whoa, I didn't know you were going there." It is directed within the direction that they've supplied us. So whereas a memoir can really dig deep into some pretty heavy stuff or really joyous things, but it can expose a lot deeper.
(34:40):
Whereas this is more about decisions, justifications, communications. So really the interview process probably takes two to three hours, and then it's the writing process and two draughts at least back and forth to say, "Yeah, I'm not really comfortable with that. Or I'd prefer we put more emphasis on this." But usually it's about guidance and them giving me the words and the tools and I try and make it as close to the language and vernacular that they would use themselves. So it feels very organic when the recipient is reading it. They're thinking, "That is mom, that is dad. I can hear them saying these things." Because as an heirloom, it's something we want them to be able to go back to and look at forever and not just be a piece of paper that's in the top drawer, private place in the bookshelf. So yeah, probably a month from go to woe.
Tara (35:38):
And do you need them to have a really clear vision and have made up their mind before they start working with you? Or does this process actually help them get some clarity on that as well?
Karren (35:52):
Both of those can happen. Usually if I was to put a percentage on it, 80% of the time people know exactly what they're doing because it's part of their estate planning with their legal team. So they're very clear that X amount's going here and that's going there and that person's getting nothing and this is why. So they have already decided the breakdown of the succession and that sort of thing. This is the storytelling arm and arc to that. So they already know. Some of the time though, so the other 20% of the time, and I would never in a thousand years give anybody any legal advice or otherwise, but I can be a sounding board sometimes. So I'll take the story and say, "Once you've made the decisions, come back to me and we'll form that into a proper storytelling arc. But you have that conversation with your legal team.
(36:46):
I'm sitting beside the legal team. I'm not the legal team."
Tara (36:50):
I mean, I'm sure the listeners have got ideas going through their head about how Forever Told would compliment the particular way that they practise with clients, but just sort of verbalising what I'm thinking, I can definitely see opportunity for perhaps where we are looking at it from the legal perspective going, "I think you could be facing a dispute here between your kids and we're sort of on notice that they're going to be unhappy. So why don't we go and actually build out a proper document explaining the reasons and the detailed thought process that went into this beyond it just being a very cold legal document?" And then I'm wondering too, we do get a lot of clients sitting on their estate planning, either their documents or they embark on the process with us, but then they can't quite finalise their instructions. And we'll be there.
(37:56):
We often talk on this podcast about, well, as a lawyer, you think that it's too expensive and that's the reason they haven't moved forward when actually there can be so many other reasons that people hold off on dealing and tackling with their estate plan. And they say they're going to go ahead, they even put their money in trust and then they just sit there and they won't reply to your emails. And maybe it's a matter of actually them working with someone like you, Karren, to just talk it out a bit and get their thoughts crystallised in a non-legal environment. Or if they've gotten partway through the process, but they're stuck on a few things and they just won't make up a decision and you've given them the options, the legal options, and they're just sort of stuck there. I wonder if working with you could just be the thing that sort of helps them get a bit of more clarity and connect more with their values and the reason behind what they're trying to do.
Karren (38:59):
And I think, Tara, that's such a great idea. And the reason I say that is one of the things that I have available to me that you and your lawyer cohort don't is adjectives or are adjectives. I can embellish and say structured sentences on that document that are way more flowery and effusive than you are allowed to do. I don't have those same restrictions. So that helps because people can use words that they use, that's their language. If they want to say, like in the document we were talking about before, our dad says bloody. Like, oh, of course you bloody did. Because that is something that he would say all of the time. So to not have it in there would be odd. You couldn't put that into a legal document. Well, you could, but you might not be in touch.
Tara (40:01):
No, we probably wouldn't. I would deadly get edited.
Karren (40:08):
But I can. So it is a much more relaxed environment for the person. And if you've got, let's just use farming as an example. You've got a farming family who are very focused on what they're doing and everything else is rubbish. We can't spend time doing that. We've got cows to milk or whatever their thinking is. Suddenly when you get into a conversation with those same family members when they're on the deck as the sun's going down having a beer, which is where I can have that conversation, you get a whole different perspective than I'm not wasting time going to the solicitor's office. So I've just got a better opportunity to tap into when they're the most likely to give me their story. And the other thing I find absolutely gratifying is that as soon as you can find the way it's different for different people, you have to use different techniques to get to that point with different people.
(41:08):
But as soon as you find the way in for them to understand, if you don't give me the full reasoning behind the decisions that you are making, your children will never understand. Whereas if they understand, as we discussed earlier, I won't repeat it, but there are reasons and this is why. And we don't love you any less. It's just that this is how we can see the farm continuing on and you being able to come back to it. It will forever be yours. The family, the McAllisters will live forever. But yeah, so I think that's one of the keys is that people really can open up in a different way with this process than they can with the legal process. And hopefully they do, and hopefully they don't leave their kids with unending answers.
Tara (41:58):
So Karren, if someone is listening and they really see a role for your work to compliment their practise, what is the best way for them to get in touch with you?
Karren (42:07):
Well, I've got a website, which is triple dub, obviously forevertold.com. Au. So that's probably the quickest way because it's just the name of the business. But I've got mobile numbers on there, email numbers on there as well. It's just Karren, which is [email protected]. Au. So it's all pretty. All roads lead back to me.
Tara (42:34):
And you've got some packages and the pricing up on your website, so that's a really good way to get a sense.
Karren (42:42):
Absolutely. So the memoirs and the family history and all of those things are very well publicised. The intentional ethical will is not in the same way because it's not measurable in the same sense. What I can tell you is that what your listeners will be looking at and what you looked at this morning, Tara, that's at around the $2,000 mark, and that's for a fully bound book. So it's very, very reasonable. But obviously if you've got 10 children and five of them hate the other five and there's all sorts of. I mean, the longer and bigger it is, the more it becomes. But in that instance, it's a case-by-case basis because it isn't as measurable in terms of the dynamics as a memoir, for example, is where we know how many chapters people are after, and we can ascertain that a bit easier. But yeah, the information's all online.
Tara (43:43):
Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a great chat. I really love your passion for storytelling, especially in the estate planning space. Estate planning is always getting a bad rap, and lots of people just want to stick their head in the sand and not talk about death and money. But obviously shining a light on this means your legacy is so much more impactful and you are not leaving broken hearts behind. So yeah, it's really important work that you do, and thank you for sharing that with us today.
Karren (44:19):
I'm so grateful that you gave me the opportunity to share with you and your listeners, Tara. So you keep up the good work because you are absolutely doing a great job out there to bring succession to the fore and not make it a dirty word. So well done to you as well.
Tara (44:35):
Thank you. Well, for anyone listening, check out the show notes. We've got the example ethical will there. We'll put the website in there as well. And yeah, reach out to Karren if you feel like this is another thing you can add to your estate planning toolkit. And we'll talk to you next week.
