Tara (00:50):
Welcome everybody, and thank you so much for joining us today in the Art of Estate Planning Podcast. I am really excited to bring a special guest to us today.
(01:01):
We have in the room, John Cachia. John is the founder and CEO of Thriving Wealth. He has been in the game, running that business for about 17 years. He has been the national chair of the Financial Advice Association of Australia, and he's a leading voice in the financial advice profession. Welcome, John.
John (01:24):
Thanks. Hearing 17 years already, it does feel like it's just flown by to be honest with you, but thanks for having me. I think it's been a few years, maybe even during COVID when I was back on this one, something like that.
Tara (01:36):
Yeah. Well, you've definitely been with us in the Art of Estate Planning world. I think this is the first one on the actual podcast because we've only been going for about a year or so, but we certainly have lots of live trainings where John. John, you've been a huge supporter of the Art of Estate Planning from the very beginning. I think you were one of our founding members and you've always been contributing your thoughts and views on the estate planning experience. So I'm sure our longstanding members will recognise your voice.
John (02:07):
Hello to everyone. Ben, if you've watched the videos, hopefully it was informative. I get a lot out of this group as well too, and obviously I got a lot out of what Tara does as well too. So thank you, Tara. Yeah.
Tara (02:19):
So John, today we've gone to talk about my favourite topic. I think it's one of your favourites as well, testamentary discretionary trust and the importance of their role in estate planning. And this came about, we were having a chat where I'm like, I am just banging the drum about testamentary trusts nonstop, but I think people almost tune out now when they hear me talking about it. And there's lots of different perspectives and opinions in the industry, especially lawyers, perhaps some older school, more traditional lawyers. And you though, let's get on the podcast and have a chat about another perspective of testamentary trust coming from someone that isn't just me. And I am really excited to hear why you see testamentary trust as such an important piece of the estate planning puzzle as well. So that's why we're here. John, take us away. Tell me your thoughts on testamentary trust.
(03:20):
Do you recommend them for clients? Are they just a sort of high-end tool? Tell the listeners what you think.
John (03:28):
Yeah. Well, first and foremost, I can't believe that there's so many lawyers out there that aren't promoting testamentary trusts. From our perspective, we've unfortunately had incidents where we might recommend a testamentary trust only for the lawyer to say, "Nah, it's not applicable for the client or it's not, what are you talking about? They shouldn't be doing it." And I'm scratching my head and obviously I don't want to overtake the lawyer in any way or overstep anything, but it's around, I do say to these clients, "Hey, get a second opinion." And hopefully they do. Some obviously don't, but it goes to show Tara how much we believe in them where we're saying, "Hey, listen, let's really push for this." Because the main thing that we want for our clients from a financial perspective is for them to have choices. We spend so much time working towards them having choices while they're still living.
(04:24):
And a lot of the conversations we have with clients is the choices that they want to give for their family. And while they're with us, they try to create those choices along the way. But then if someone dies, do those choices just suddenly want to stop? And for all of our clients, the answer is no. I don't think I've come across a client that I can remember that said, oh no, I don't want choices for my kids or my grandkids or whatever it is. And so when we talk about having some choices or some flexibility, testamentary trusts come there, but they also come for us in regards to as we continue to build wealth for individuals, there's two main concerns that people have. Number one is around how can I minimise my tax? And two is around how can I keep my assets in the family?
(05:19):
And I really, really just struggle to understand, and I know you're a massive advocate for it, Tara, but I really struggle to understand how a basic will can address those two concerns for the family once they're gone. And I do think it's, I would say, a duty of care of the lawyer to say, have you had those discussions? Because we come from a world where we have to have those discussions. They're embedded in what we do. And so when clients are saying, "Yeah, I do want those options." Well, in our statement of advice, which we have to provide whenever we're providing advice to a client, inside there is around, okay, well, we need to review your estate planning or we need to establish an estate plan. And a part of that is to have a testamentary trust. Then it's obviously we work with the estate planning lawyers, but it's just a real, real...
(06:15):
It's been really interesting for me over the journey, Tara, to see so many lawyers that are just like, no, or it's not valid for you. And I used to have numbers that I used to work with, and I know we've spoken about this, Tara, as a rule of thumb, is there a certain net worth? And to be honest with you, I kind of at the start thought that there was, like you should be earning X amount or you should have a certain amount of asset pool. But when I boil it down to those questions, do you want choices? Do you want the ability to try and minimise tax? Do you want to have some protection elements that you may not have? In all cases, it's yes. So how can I tell the difference between someone having 250,000 that wants those options or $500,000? If they want those options, I think it's right for us to show them what options are there and then for them to consider obviously a cost benefit analysis in regards to yes, there's obviously a cost that needs to get paid to establish a testamentary trust.
(07:17):
But once people go through the process and really understand the mechanics of how it all sits and how it all works, they very quickly see that in most cases, the benefits of having it for their dependents far exceeds the cost of establishment and all of that stuff.
Tara (07:35):
Yeah. And John, I have to say, I am sorry that you've gone through that experience where you've sort of set the client up understanding all the benefits and then they've gone to a lawyer and they've just shut it down because that obviously confuses the client and puts them in a really hard position about which professional need they should follow. And look, I don't know the answer to how we solve that. I think some of this attitude comes from the old days. And you and I both know you having been in the profession for so long, the trusts from the '80s and the early '90s are not really the trusts that we are dealing with now. Rightly or wrongly, I think people took a much shorter term view of trusts. They didn't have all the experience that we now have about how to future-proof them better.
(08:31):
And a lot of older trusts did have complications and challenges and people who crafting them only thinking one generation ahead. And I do think, especially if you talk to some of the older barristers who spent a lot of time on trust disputes and applications to court for clarification around trust, they will have a pretty negative view around trust because they have seen every possible thing that can go wrong compared to the number of people now in this day and age who use a family trust. I know you've got a bunch, I've got at least three. It's just so common. We use them without incident. They give us the asset protection and the tax planning. And I think we've got to adopt and modernise the industry's attitude towards them so that really testamentary trust should just be like another family trust that you set up now, not these sort of old, cumbersome, problematic structures of the 80s.
(09:36):
So I do think there's some of that attitude why they're like they are more effort than they're worth, they cost more. I also think if you didn't grow up practising with a mentor who was really confident and taught you testamentary trusts, they can feel very intimidating. So obviously that's my personal mission to demystify that.
John (09:57):
I think you make a really, really good point. I know at Thriving Wealth that we really focus on, let's call it an estate first approach, which is more around, okay, let's look at the whole family. Let's look at where this money's going to kind of flow, how it's going to all sit and the wishes while they're alive and whatnot. And I think that obviously puts a lot of the people that I've mentored through Thriving Wealth to really have that view of even once they're not here to, how does it all need to be structured? It doesn't need to be just structured now, it needs to be structured later. But I still do get a lot of people that are coming out of say university from financial planning and are just have no clue about estate planning and how it works. So from a financial planning side, I do think that there's a lot of what a will is, what a power of attorney is, maybe just simply what a testamentary trust is, how it works and the mechanics behind it and how it can do certain things is just not taught at university.
(11:03):
So if you don't have a mentor that understands it, has worked with it, talk about it the whole kind of financial planning kind of graduates or new entrants as well, they're just like too hard basket. Now, older generation in our industry also too hard basket. So we've got this kind of, even in ours, which I'm hearing probably echoes in yours as well, is there's this whole kind of two generations. And it's not to say that our generation's any better, it's probably who, like you said, had the mentor or the person to show them that. Yeah, because some of the younger ones are really, really good and even some of the older ones are great. But I think what we're seeing in both professions is this crossover of, I don't know, it's either too hard, I don't know, and then they see some bad cases or whatever and they just go, no, this is not for me.
(11:53):
Because I have had a lot of financial advisors that just go, am I stepping over the line? Am I not? I'm just going to just refer it out and whatever that lawyer says. Whereas for those who know me, I probably don't take that on first merit. I do push because the client is my client and I want to be making sure regardless of what happens, their wishes come to fruition.
Tara (12:16):
Yeah. And I think that's a great point, John. Estate planning is moving more and more towards a specialisation. Any lawyer thinks they can do a will, but they can't necessarily do an estate plan. I remember being a junior lawyer in a full service firm where we had two separate wills departments and then the property guys would be doing wills and you're like, why? We've got in-house specialisation. Why not ask? And they're using a random precedent that they've just kept somewhere on the system and you're just like, whoa, there's more to this. They're recommending strategies that are no longer suitable because the stamp duty rules have changed and they're not across it. And I think there's a lot of like, oh, I can do a will, but actually estate planning is so much more than a will, as we all know. And I think it's important now to actually, especially if there's any advisors listening, check if the lawyer that you're partnering with is a specialist in estate planning.
(13:25):
And they don't have to be an accredited specialist for what that means in our legal industry, but they just have to be focused on this particular area and be up to date and across it, not dabbling on the side.
John (13:39):
It's very interesting you say that. I've obviously come across all different lawyers over the years, and the one biggest thing that I find is around the questions that they ask. It's like, did you go to see a lawyer for your will? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. They gave me this one page form and it's like, who do you want this to be who? And obviously I've
Tara (14:01):
Done
John (14:01):
Personally my estate planning. I've updated it. I don't know if it's all you, Tara, but for many years, me and Burjo and my wife are just constantly updating it. But some of the questions and some of the exercises that we've done over the years have been very, I'm going to say cumbersome because they've been very important for us, but they've been quite detailed. So I think the biggest one for me has just been the level of curiosity that I've found with estate planners who absolutely love it. And I couldn't help but bring up a conversation that I was having, I think with one of your members most likely, just around the view of estate planning specialists within the industry as well too, Kara. I was actually shocked to understand that they're kind of like, I don't know, the black sheep of the legal fraternity. I just didn't get that because from our perspective, or I know from my perspective and my team, we just hold estate planning lawyers so high in regards.
(15:04):
So for those that are in the art of estate planning, please don't view, I know for me and a lot of other, my financial advisor friends, we absolutely love you all.
Tara (15:12):
John, that is so kind. Look, I definitely think there's, look, probably in the same way as in the medical industry, the surgeons feel like they might be more superior than the doctors and then the specialists compared to the GPs. And yeah, I definitely think estate planning has not been viewed as the most glamorous, especially when everyone thinks they can do it. No, no, no, absolutely. I totally get what you're saying. And then when we're out here going, "Well, estate planning is hard and this is how you do it properly," everyone's like, "Are you kidding?" But even now, I released a podcast episode recently about how to actually stress test the estate plan and to make it work. And one of the things I emphasised there is you can't just be taking the instructions from the client and writing that down and basically the pen for the client.
(16:10):
You have to really guide them and ideally in collaboration with their professional advisors like their financial advisor, because the reality is we've got to make sure that a surviving spouse has access to cash that is not frozen, that they're not going to suddenly have to be getting credit cards and maxing things out because there's assets there, but they're not accessible.
(16:36):
The superannuation plan is coming up a lot in our TT Precedence Club hot seats and what to do with it. There is actually so much on the other side of a person dying that we need to think about to make sure that obviously someone loved dying is the most distressing, upsetting event in your life. And we've got to do everything we can so that everything around it goes as smoothly as possible so you can focus on managing those feelings and emotions. And if we've done things that actually make it worse because we just didn't do any future planning or stressing or back of the envelope calculations, we're really doing a disservice. And I think there's a lot of estate planning lawyers who don't have that mindset at all.
John (17:28):
I also think that this is heavily emphasised now with the recent budget as well too, Tara, testamentary trust in regards to the way that they've been carved out and some of these proposals and everything. I'm just like, one, I love it because I'm just like, awesome. But I do question now because there is such a differential change then if a lawyer didn't do it right, what does the estate now think?
Tara (17:57):
Well, yeah John, that's so interesting because firstly, our industry is nowhere near as prescriptive by our regulator as yours is. They kind of just trust us and let us go to do our thing rightly or wrongly. Even the number of CPD points we have is so much smaller than you guys.
John (18:21):
I'm constantly keeping up to date with everything, everyone. I think my CPD overload.
Tara (18:26):
Do you have to do 30 or 50 hours a year, something crazy? 40.
John (18:31):
40, but then -
Tara (18:32):
Okay. We have to do 10.
John (18:34):
10.
Tara (18:35):
10.
John (18:35):
I think. Oh my goodness. But also -
Tara (18:38):
Yeah, exactly.
John (18:40):
But there's so much obviously work that we have to do that's also not C4DA accredited as well too. So anyway, where I was kind of coming from is I look at myself and I'm not to say that I'm super affluent or whatever, but I'm like, if my lawyer kind of said, didn't even mention it to me or didn't even mention it to my estate, my estate would be like, why didn't we have the questions? Why weren't they even put forth? We didn't even know that was an option. And I don't know if that's, but that doesn't, I don't know, just doesn't work right by me.
Tara (19:16):
No, I agree. And I get really frustrated. I went to a presentation by our insurer in Queensland last month and they're really good, our Lexon insurer in Queensland. It's state by state and those guys are really switched on and they're trying to do what they can by proactive training to reduce the amount of stuff ups and therefore claims. But they don't talk about when they're focusing on estate planning specific risks, they don't talk about testamentary trust. And in fact, I think they would go, oh, well, testamentary trust increases the complexity, so it increases the risk. Whereas actually we should be worried more about outcomes for clients, not lawyers not being adequately trained enough. But yeah, it drives me crazy because a lawyer doing their best possibly has a bit more risk exposure because they're doing something more complicated than the lawyer who just goes, I'm not going to even suggest a testamentary trust and is actually doing the client a huge disservice by not having the conversation and putting it on the table.
(20:25):
But from the insurer's perspective, they're probably like, great, stay in your little box. It's a very uncommercial approach.
John (20:33):
And it's also obviously to hear that that is also disheartening from the client's perspective. I can't help but hear clients who I couldn't kind of twist their arm to kind of get one and they're just having a basic will and I'm just like, oh, do you know what you're losing out on? And I don't know, because as you
Tara (20:52):
Kind
John (20:52):
Of talked about, we are trained to kind of always, we've got best interest duty. We always need to try and do what's in the best interest of the client. Now, obviously because that is so far reaching in regards to that, we just have to take into consideration direct impacts and even indirect impacts from the advice. So it's probably we're trained as well too, Tara, to think about outside of what the client has actually even asked themself. And I'll probably then encourage lawyers just while I'm here is to just encourage lawyers to go, regardless of what the minimum standard is, what's the best outcome for the client? What's the best outcome? And the best outcome is to actually look there and say, well, yeah, it might not be the cheapest and that might be your hesitation to actually recommend it, but is it right for the client?
(21:40):
And most of the clients I know, once we justify the value and they can understand what it's going to do for the estate and what that means from their minimised tax protection perspective, all of that stuff, they love it. So yeah, it's very interesting. These new federal budget, going back to this, I think Tara, there's a lot of more people that are kind of interested to have the discussion and especially when our advisors are saying that, hey, bring this up and this is just another reason why we are getting a lot of new clients that are pursuing testamentary trusts.
Tara (22:12):
Well, that is really reassuring to hear because superannuation and testamentary trusts are just looking better and better in terms of strategies. I mean, you are the financial guy, but those environments, you can't really replicate those outcomes any other way.
John (22:31):
Well, I kind of say that the governments, they're reducing all of the different alternative structures. And really, you look at the family home, the principal place of residence, and right now as we're talking in October, whatever, 2016, 26, sorry, 16, geez, 2026, principal place of residence is still capital gains tax-free. So we are observing and we're seeing what's happening out there, and we're seeing a lot of people selling their investment properties and consolidating into trophy homes. We're seeing it. The high end market, I'm in Victoria and I would imagine this is very similar in Queensland, we're observing it and we're seeing this happen. So we're also seeing people that are superannuation focused. Superannuation is still great as Tara was talking, still putting money towards superannuation. Testamentary trust obviously upon passing is something that they're looking to do. And then another one as well too is, and a lot of people don't talk about this, is life insurance bonds.
(23:29):
So investment bonds as well too. So we're seeing these four areas of discussion. Now, all of those are in the estate planning world, the discussions that people need to have in regards to these, but we're definitely seeing, Tara, these four topical discussion, especially with some of these changes that have come through or that are still in motion to come through.
Tara (23:52):
And I just love hearing that you are having these conversations with clients and also having the estate planning, thinking about it from the estate planning piece as well. We have a weekly call in the TT Precedence Club with members. They bring questions to the group to workshop and go either, what do I do or am I missing something? And pretty much every single week we're like, does the client have a financial advisor? Connect with them because it's so important. I think it's a really fine line. There's so much overlap between the financial strategy. We can talk broadly about the tax concessions that testamentary trusts get, but actually understanding the impact that can have on a family's inheritance is so important. And I'm not very good at running the numbers, but I can just think even in my own circumstances, if my husband dies and I'm the sole breadwinner, we don't have his income anymore, I don't have his support around the home, and our expenses are going to, I'm going to need a lot more support.
(25:11):
I'm going to have all the pressure on me. Am I going to be able to work like I have worked in the past? To get that tax-free income to just mean that our inheritance goes so much further, even that's our generation, and then it continues multiple generations. I can see how that's life-changing for a young family.
John (25:34):
It is. It's huge.This is the thing, I build roadmaps and plans for people every single day. And it's the biggest shock that most people have is when I build their plan, I kind of model it all out and you've got millions of dollars and you just look at the line once they stop working and you just see zero tax. And you're like, not only have you compounded it in most likely in their lifetime, but like you're saying, you're going to potentially even get zero tax or close to zero tax in subsequent lifetimes. And so yeah, when we are doing the modelling, which we can do, we can actually obviously show the actual impact to that person individually. Yeah, most people look and just absolutely blown away. They usually say Tara, "Can you double check that? Can you make sure that that's right?" I'm like, "All right, I'll show you.
(26:24):
These are your numbers." But the difference between getting it right and getting it wrong is not just the impact on you, but for generations to come. And let's be honest, the people that care about this and are actually focusing on this and that are doing this all the time, that gap between the wealthy and the average is getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And I talk about, I might have even talked this about with you, but I talk this about definitely with people that I speak to often. It really hurts me because I see that gap in Australia getting bigger and bigger and people might look at it and go, "Oh, well, that's why we need a tax of rich." Well, that's probably not a topic, but it's around, I think just smart people are getting this right. They're structuring upon their life and when they pass away, very importantly.
(27:14):
And that's the difference.
Tara (27:15):
Yeah. And the productivity commission report, or I don't have the full name of it, but it's been in the news recently just basically saying our population is just ageing so dramatically and we're not replacing it with younger people joining the tax base. I just wonder what's going to happen for our kids. Our kids are around the same age. The money has to come from somewhere. So what are their tax rates going to be to have set them up in a trust environment where they can get access to tax-free income is huge. And look, maybe the rules will change again, but we have seen in the backlash from the budget in 2026 how morally opposed everyone is to this concept of the death tax and taxing inheritances. So I do think it is going to be hard for someone to have a chop at that again.
(28:16):
There's a lot of other low hanging fruit. So yeah, I just think setting them up in these protected environments and you only get one chance. It has to be in the will. John, I think going to your point about, well, is 500,000 the magic number? If they still want the protection and the flexibility and they've only got 250,000 when they make their will, you've got to use it or lose it. It has to be in your will when you die. So if you're in doubt, just put it in there and then at the actual date of death, once when the estate's being administered, their executor can sit with you, John, and on their financial advisor team and go, "Okay, how much money are we dealing with now? What are the benefits that we could have from this structure? Will we actually get them or should we bypass the testamentary trust and not use it?" But you don't even get $200, you don't pass go, you don't get to have that conversation if it wasn't in the will.
(29:22):
And that's why I get so frustrated when lawyers just shut it down and they say, "No, it's not for you."
John (29:28):
And if you put it in comparison, most people these days will spend more on a Bali holiday than they do on getting their estate planning sorted out. And that's probably with Barley holidays on sale as well. But what I'm trying to get at is once you explain the value, most people go, "Yeah, I've just got to get this done, get it sorted." Now it's then around obviously my recommendation, like I did all my clients' estate, leave it there, but at least if they've got it done and done the right way, it just gives them those options. I don't know, maybe from my perspective as a financial advisor, having options is really good. And Tara, we're working with a client right now who's very close to me. It's actually a family member. He's passed away and it's actually a relative of mine, but helped through the whole process.
(30:15):
And he's passed away. The wife's still around and these are a couple in their 70s. I work with an estate planning lawyer through this. And I remember before he passed away, him just saying to me for the estate planning lawyer was just like, "John, thank you so much for introducing me to that lady. It's just so important to get it done, get it all sorted. I know that when I'm no longer here, this is all going to play out for my..." It was literally like he's dying, which is being done well. And also just in regards to the children who now have passed and just in regards to the conversations, and then in regards to the lady, just seeing it play out. Now it's not fully played out as you could probably imagine, because once it goes to the woman and then from the woman, it's going to go then to the actual children.
(31:06):
That's probably when it finally, let's say it's fully settled out. But for the time being, just through that process, seeing them to have those clarity, see to have those options, see to them to also have no stresses and everyone be clear because with the estate planning lawyer, we went so far to have family meetings and also have proper... It was Tara, the proper way to do things where everyone's been spoken to, everyone knows what. There was initial arguments at the start, but it was all discussed and then everyone... So if you're going to have those arguments, like I say, having when people are around, you know what I mean? Have those conversations because when they... All three kids, guess what? They still are all talking, they're still all communicating. So that's one that we're working on, not just in regards to the money difference, but just in regards to actually seeing it play out has been very, very lovely to see, but also giving me more confidence in regards to seeing when they're executed properly, how much of a difference it can make on people.
Tara (32:09):
Yeah. And John, I'm sorry to hear that people close to you are going through that because we always do these and think, oh, it's in the never, never. But the reality is this touches people's lives in every single aspect and the responsibility is on us to make sure that we do everything properly. I know historically the culture of doing a will is a bit like getting your vaccinations or something. Firstly, people don't do it at all, and then the people who do do it, it's got to be as quick as possible. Whereas in reality, it sounds like in addition to the financial legacy, the family and values legacy has really been preserved by going and having the hard conversations and facing it front on in the family meetings. But that family unit is still close and together and the surprises aren't coming up and dismantling the whole thing.
(33:12):
I think it's a perfect example of how to do estate planning well.
John (33:16):
Yeah, definitely. And our involvement, just for everyone to know, was a lot. We put a lot of involvement in regards to it. There was one where there's properties and then there's a big portfolio and then there's a lot of cash and just trying to equalise it because one of the kids was still living in the house even though he was older and another one had all the family dynamics you could imagine that was different. The estate planning lawyer, it wasn't up for her to work out those calculations, but think about what the client's thinking. The client's thinking I want this to be as even, this is what the intention was, to be as even as possible. And so one of the arguments or he got a bit upset that one of the child was just how the calculation got worked out. We had to sit there and have a proper conversation to say, "Hey, this is actually how it's worked out." For them to be like, "Oh, after a while, oh, I get it, the penny drops." And it's actually, no, mom and dad are actually trying to equalise this as much as possible, even though that you might see someone gets X and then someone gets Y, and this is how it's all mapped out.
(34:26):
Us being able to have the tools to be able to do that as well too was really good. And my team really, they absolutely stepped up and got this done and got it done well with a great estate planning lawyer. So collaboration between estate planning lawyers and financial planners, obviously I can't recommend it enough. I know you talk about it and I can understand why people talk about on your hot seat every week about having a financial advisor or not.
Tara (34:50):
Yeah. To me, it's just so important because we have to understand as lawyers our limitation and sometimes we need to be reminded of that. One of the questions we had last week was, "Oh, the super balances look like they're going to be over the transfer balance cap when they die." I'm like, "You don't have to give advice on that. That's not in your scope. Have a meeting with the financial advisor because I'm sure they're already thinking about it and talk to each other about and come up together with what the best super strategy is because the financial advisor will be looking at it through the numbers lens. We need to look at it through the lens of whatever we choose being legally effective and binding, but neither of us can do our job without the other. We have to collaborate." And that's just one example.
(35:46):
For me, even just understanding where the money's going, the debt. I've got a question for this week's hot seat about when the will says pay out and forgive all debts. Well, do we want that in the precedent every time for blended families? I'm like, "Well, we should always be doing rough calculations, especially for blended families about what money's going where, including obligations and liabilities." So it probably doesn't matter what the base precedent says because you're going to have to adjust it to reflect the strategy planning. But I think a lot of people don't do that.
John (36:28):
And it's actually a good point you make is I think the best estate plans that we've had for families is when we're communicated along the way with the lawyer and we're not going like, "Here's the client, do what they want to do. Oh, now here's the signed wills." You know what I mean? Or here's the signed... That collaboration in between where they want this, what do you think and how's this going to work and blah, blah, blah. And then they're the best ones. But as well too, which I've started doing with my estate planning lawyer, Tara, which you're going to be hopefully impressed with, is I've actually got a financial advisor in my team that looks after mine and my wife's finances. I've got my accountant and I've got my estate planning lawyer. I've also got my corporate lawyer as well too, which are two different people.
(37:15):
And I've got all four of them in a collaboration Google sheet that every three months they get an update of the record of our wealth position, structures, who owns what, any changes, any commentary in regards to me and my wife sit down and go, "All right, last three months, has anything changed?" Tick. I hate having to do things five years down the track and then go forget everything. So for my way I do things, we've just done a 90-day pulse check and so good. Clarity across the whole board, people then pick up what they need to pick up. Let's be honest, the estate planning lawyer might not need to do anything, but I know recently it was like, "Oh, new entity, haven't done this, got to do that." And from a client's perspective, they don't know if it's the financial advisor that needs to know.
(38:08):
They don't know if it's the accountant that needs to know. Probably like yourself when you were obviously practising with individual clients, I feel like sometimes I'm just directing traffic over here. So it was a really good way to say everyone knows that's in the circle, you pick out whatever you need to pick out. Now, obviously my stuff's a little bit complex for say normal just mom and dad, but I want clarity. I want directing of traffic. And when everyone's talking on one system makes it just so much better.
Tara (38:39):
Yeah, I love that. And the reality is that's the team who will be sorting things out if you and Buju pass away. So they need to know and have known in advance that it's all going to work and not get any surprises. It's too late to pick things up after passing away.
John (38:58):
Yeah. And it doesn't take us long. Every 90 days go in there, maybe 15 minutes to half an hour, bang, and done. And in most cases it's just checking. You know how you've got the will bring it out every year or every three years or whatever. Yeah, I'd probably do that. The actual documentation is every couple of years, but it's more just the main things, just remembering who's the appointor on this, who's the executor on this, who's the... You might've had a really bad incident with one of them and you forgot that they've got a main role and jump onto the call with the estate planning lawyer and I'll be like, "Oh, I've had thisday." And they're like, "You sure? It's just not heat right now." Yeah, it's been good. But I think more importantly from this conversation as well too, Tara, it's around, for me, estate planning lawyers knowing that we absolutely love them, keep asking really, really good questions.
(39:47):
And I think from my perspective, push clients a little bit because they will often speak to the person around the road that just wants basic and most people don't know this stuff, let's be honest.
Tara (39:57):
Yeah. And John, thank you so much for coming on and sharing that because I think firstly, for a lot of our listeners, especially those who have been in the art of estate planning space for a long time, we can possibly get in our own little echo chamber. So it's really good to hear from an outsider's perspective, we're drinking the Kool-Aid, but that you truly see them measure up in industry and see testamentary trust as such a powerful tool. So that is really reassuring. Obviously, we're doing our best to turn the tide and get the opinion moving, but I think that is also just maybe a generational shift in our industry, but it's great to hear how you see why you recommend them to clients and how you see them being useful. Also, I think a lot of the time, and obviously you don't speak for everyone in financial advice, but we're sort of like, "Oh, we don't want to waste your time or be a burden by involving the financial advisor in the estate plan." But I think your focus, you don't have billable hours like us, you are focused on a holistic approach and outcome for clients, and you are the ones who will actually be setting things up and then managing the finances for clients, estates and beneficiaries after they die.
(41:26):
So involving you early and really collaborating is so important and I hope the lawyers listening, if that's one of the key messages they can take away, to always ask the question and open up the dialogue to facilitate that collaboration instead of thinking over a burden or it's not going to be received well.
John (41:48):
Yeah, definitely. And I will put it out there, and you haven't asked me for this, Tara, but if there's anyone in your group as well too that does want to have a chat in regards to what's going on in their head, I'm not saying this is me, but there's a lot of financial advisors that actually want to speak to estate planning lawyers as well too. So even if it's me directing a little bit of traffic or I'm happy to do that as well too. All right?
Tara (42:12):
John, thank you so much. I will give Thriving Wealth a plug because you guys are at my financial advisors as well. As you can tell from the way John practises, they really are completely holistic, goal focused, really doing everything they can to set their clients up for success. So if you have clients who do need financial advisors or looking for one yourself, go check out John and Thriving Wealth, see if their team is a good fit for you. But obviously I've seen closely how you guys operate and it's just really reassuring to see how important the role of a financial advisor is, not just in the estate planning process. We were having a conversation with Mason and your team about our life insurance and I was like, "Well, actually, I want to do all these things around private school fees if we die, including paying for our guardian's kids to go to our kids' private school if they want to.
(43:17):
Well, actually someone better make sure there's enough money to do that so that becomes Mason's problem."
John (43:23):
It does.
Tara (43:25):
It's so holistic and it's so important to look at all of that. So anyway, I'm kind of rambling now, but John, I just want to say thank you so much for everything you do for me and the Art of Estate Planning and just generally sort of changing the attitudes to estate planning as well.
John (43:41):
Thank you so much, Tara, and we don't take that lightly and appreciate that call out. And like I said again, whatever I can do to help the group, just reach out. But thank you for having me.
